A6 Rebooted

[Limehouse]

Welcome back Norma! Excellent photos! Well done.

[Limehouse]

In discussing Hanratty's (disastrous) change of alibi half way through his trial we should be mindful that such a shoddy trick as the one played by the anti-hero in this drama was prohibited by the provisions of section 11 the Criminal Justice Act 1967 which provides for an accused to give a notice of alibi and he may only deviate from that with the permission of the court.

As to Hanratty's alleged meanderings in Liverpool on the afternoon of 22 August we have above considered whether Hanratty could have had time to get to Cowley's shop on the Scottie Road by the time Mrs Dinwoodie said her encounter with the directions seeker occurred, to wit about 4.00pm just after the Echos had arrived.

The next problems with Hanratty's Liverpool alibi are after he leaves Cowley's shop. He now has to make some more 'desultory inquires' as to the whereabouts of his Tarlton/Carlton Av before making the decision to abandon his search. He has to have a meal and a cuppa at a Lyons restaurant and make a visit to the billiard hall on Lime Street to raise funds selling his stolen watch. He then has to catch the bus to Rhyl, this we are informed leaves Liverpool at 6.00pm.

Unfortunately for Jim, Robert Kempt, the billiard hall manager, says that it is his custom is to take his afternoon smoking break any time between 6.00pm and 7.30pm. This would seem to rule out Hanratty catching the bus and trying to flog Kempt the watch on the 22 August, he could not do both.

And yet, a man did visit the sweet shop and did speak to the manager of the billiard hall and did ask for a bed for the night in Rhyl - just as Hanratty described.

Contrastingly, far fewer people claim to have seen Hanratty in the cornfield or in or near London or anywhere else during the crucial times.

[Sherlock Houses]

Unfortunately for Jim, Robert Kempt, the billiard hall manager, says that it is his custom is to take his afternoon smoking break any time between 6.00pm and 7.30pm. This would seem to rule out Hanratty catching the bus and trying to flog Kempt the watch on the 22 August, he could not do both.

I didn't know Mr Kempt smoked. And here's silly old me thinking that he took his early evening break to breathe in some fresh air and get away from the characteristically stuffy and smoky atmosphere of a billiard hall of those days.

Just who was this 20 something out-of-towner bloke walking the streets of Liverpool impersonating James Hanratty on August 22nd I wonder ?

[Spitfire]

I didn't know Mr Kempt smoked. And here's silly old me thinking that he took his early evening break to breathe in some fresh air and get away from the characteristically stuffy and smoky atmosphere of a billiard hall of those days.

Just who was this 20 something out-of-towner bloke walking the streets of Liverpool impersonating James Hanratty on August 22nd I wonder ?

The point is he took his break at any time between 6.00pm and 7.30pm when Hanratty would have been on the Rhyl bus.

And I wonder why this impersonator adopted an Irish/ Scottish barely comprehensible accent.

I agree that the jury must have given the question of this part (Mrs Dinwoodie) of Hanratty's alibi anxious consideration but must have come to the conclusion that the person asking for directions was not Hanratty.

The jury heard all the evidence, you have not. The jury saw all the witnesses give evidence, you have not.

[NickB]

Hi Nick-will do my best to find the reference tomorrow Cheers!

Thanks. Also do you have the exact date of the News of the World interview with Louise Anderson 4 years after.

[Limehouse]

The point is he took his break at any time between 6.00pm and 7.30pm when Hanratty would have been on the Rhyl bus.

And I wonder why this impersonator adopted an Irish/ Scottish barely comprehensible accent.

I agree that the jury must have given the question of this part (Mrs Dinwoodie) of Hanratty's alibi anxious consideration but must have come to the conclusion that the person asking for directions was not Hanratty.

The jury heard all the evidence, you have not. The jury saw all the witnesses give evidence, you have not.

Did the jury really hear ALL of the evidence and see ALL of the wintesses give evidence?

And isn't 'any time between 6pm and 7.30pm' rather vague?

[NickB]

He makes several references to re-visiting Liverpool in order to convince his 'friends' there (actually receivers of stolen goods) to admit that he was there on that Tuesday night in August.

This appears to have still been the line at trial.

Sherrard: 'What did you say to him [Acott] at the end of that conversation about what you were going to do?'

Hanratty: 'I said I was going to Liverpool to interview and see if these people would stand by my alibi. That was on the Friday night.'

Then after the Liverpool phone call to Acott to say he was unsuccessful and “they’ve kicked me out” he booked into at a bed and breakfast in New Brighton.

Did the jury really hear ALL of the evidence and see ALL of the witnesses give evidence?

This is particularly pertinent to the day under discussion.

Section 185 of the Appeal says: “The jury heard evidence about the train times from London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street (12.15pm arriving 4.45pm) ...”

So because Hanratty gave evidence that he arrived about 4.30 the jury were given the 4.45 arrival time and it appears this was accepted by the defence, as Graham discussed.

[Natalie Severn]

Nick,these notes are headed ' transcript of statements from Hanratty to police 21/12 ;-30/ 12;10/01/62.' They are typed in original courier typewriter script.
They are not like the photocopies of the transcripts of the fiddled police notes of the interview between Oxford and Acott and Hanratty in Blackpool on the night of his arrest which have numbers of deletion gaps and erasures which indicated the scribe of those notes[Oxford] had altered them and the originals of which are now back either with the Hanratty family or their lawyers.In contrast the notes which contain the reference to the sweet shop contain details of the relationship between Charles France and Hanratty e.g. 'when he[France] first took me home ' 'one afternoon in the middle of July..........Dixie was desperate then,he had no money and was out of work....." - one particular section of the notes of 30/12/61 is headed "not to be used without his permission' -it contains further references to small jobs Hanratty did for France and a bigger one France and he did with Harry [who was 'oldish'] the Doorman of the Rehearsal Club etc the loot of which they sold for £85 and gave 2 bottles bottle of Scotch to France and one to Harry .Dixie got £30-"with that Dixie [nick name for France] took me round to his flat .I stayed there nearly every night for 2 months....."and he goes on to talk about telling France of the back seat of a bus when they went to a betting office at Camden Town about the end of July...etc etc .They are truly fascinating notes the bulk of which have never found their way into any book or article that I have ever read!

[Natalie Severn]

just to re-iterate regarding above post [for NickB ] the Hanratty statement says 'to police' this one is dated 30/12/61

sentence is dated 30/12/61 in courier typewriter 1960's script :"Shown sweet shop says it was a corner shop by traffic lights and gents toilets and ladies toilets.Mrs Dinwoodie was by the cigarettes in far counter."

[Natalie Severn]

for Nick---Date of News of the World Interview with Louise Anderson:November 27th 1966.

[NickB]

Thanks very much for your replies.

a corner shop by traffic lights and gents toilets and ladies toilets[/I][/B]

This pinpoints the shop. But it contrasts with his vague description before. Is it possible he got the information from Gilbanks after his interviews with Mrs D, Barbara and Linda?

[Natalie Severn]

re question from NickB about Hanratty's recollection of sweet shop's location

Nick-I am beginning to think these may not be 'Police Notes'-as headed - but notes taken by Gillbanks,the 'ex' policeman employed by Hanratty's trial barrister Michael Sherrard to dig further into the Liverpool alibi [before Hanratty told them he had caught the Rhyl bus outside Lime Street Station that evening..... which was in his trial at Bedford of course ].Although the reference you requested is in these notes and dated 30.12.61 about Hanratty's recollection of the location of the sweet shop being 'by some traffic lights between the Ladies and Gents toilets all three pages suggest to me they have the hallmarks of interrogation by his defence in order to build his case ' The reason I say this is because of the request , clearly by Hanratty, that certain sections of the notes cannot be used without his permission[by Sherrard?] at his trial.Surely he would not say this to Acott or Oxford? Therefore it begins to make sense and explains how the information from them did not find its way into either Foot's or Woffinden's books-as far as I know and I have searched right through in past when trying to find other references to Harry the doorman for example-looks like this Harry took over from Dixie France as Doorman of the Rehearsal Club?

Nick,these notes are headed ' transcript of statements from Hanratty to police 21/12 ;-30/ 12;10/01/62.' They are typed in original courier typewriter script.
They are not like the photocopies of the transcripts of the fiddled police notes of the interview between Oxford and Acott and Hanratty in Blackpool on the night of his arrest which have numbers of deletion gaps and erasures which indicated the scribe of those notes[Oxford] had altered them and the originals of which are now back either with the Hanratty family or their lawyers.In contrast the notes which contain the reference to the sweet shop contain details of the relationship between Charles France and Hanratty e.g. 'when he[France] first took me home ' 'one afternoon in the middle of July..........Dixie was desperate then,he had no money and was out of work....." - one particular section of the notes of 30/12/61 is headed "not to be used without his permission' -it contains further references to small jobs Hanratty did for France and a bigger one France and he did with Harry [who was 'oldish'] the Doorman of the Rehearsal Club etc the loot of which they sold for £85 and gave 2 bottles bottle of Scotch to France and one to Harry .Dixie got £30-"with that Dixie [nick name for France] took me round to his flat .I stayed there nearly every night for 2 months....."and he goes on to talk about telling France of the back seat of a bus when they went to a betting office at Camden Town about the end of July...etc etc .They are truly fascinating notes the bulk of which have never found their way into any book or article that I have ever read!

[NickB]

Nats - that would make sense.

Do you have a transcript of the Anderson interview?

[Sherlock Houses]

The point is he took his break at any time between 6.00pm and 7.30pm when Hanratty would have been on the Rhyl bus.

And I wonder why this impersonator adopted an Irish/ Scottish barely comprehensible accent.

The jury heard all the evidence, you have not. The jury saw all the witnesses give evidence, you have not.

a]So Mr Kempt stuck religiously to the 6.00pm to 7.30pm timetable ?? It was impossible for him to occasionally have started his break around 5.40pm ??

b]"Ryan [ie Hanratty] had an accent, possibly Irish" - William Nudds.
"This man [Hanratty or his double] had an accent which I cannot really place. It was more like a dialect, and was possibly Irish or cockney or a mixture of the two" - Trevor Dutton.

c]No, the jury did not hear all the evidence, as they were removed from the courtroom on at least one occasion. They may have heard most of the evidence but there's a world of difference between hearing evidence and heeding evidence.


Nice to see you back posting Natalie, incisive as ever.

[Graham]

Had a few computer glitches, hopefully fixed now.

Hi Nats, good to see you back! Where you been?

I need to do some catching-up as there's been a lot of activity over the past week, but would add that JH's original description of the Cowleys' shop being opposite a cinema would seem to be inaccurate. However, Paul Foot's photo clearly shows both traffic-lights and the entrance to public toilets opposite the shop, JH must have got this information from somewhere and I agree that Gillbanks is the likely source.

As I said recently, a few years ago Steve took some photos of the area and the railing entrance to the toilets was still there, but they were plainly no longer in use.

I've sensed for a long time that a good deal of relevant information didn't find its way into either Foot's or Woffinden's books, but I wonder if this might be partly to do with the length of the investigation and trial and the huge amount of written information that was generated?

Graham