A6 Rebooted

[Sherlock Houses]

Hanratty's movements after arriving at Lime Street Station August 22nd 1961

3.25pm: Hanratty steps off train onto platform. Walks about 40-60 yards straight ahead and off platform area.Turns right and heads 50-70 yards for the left luggage office and toilets which are located in that corner of the station.
3.35pm; Enters the Station Buffet for a cup of tea/coffee after having had a brush-up/clean and after leaving his pigskin case with Peter Usher at the left luggage office.
3.55pm: Exits Lime Street Station and enquires of passers-by about directions for Tarleton/Talbot/Carlton thoroughfare.
4.05pm: After waiting a couple or so minutes at bus-stop he boards a Scotland Road [which is only about 300-400 yards away from station] bound bus. Bus travels along Byrom Street first which leads onto Scotland Road.
4.10pm: Steps off bus and crosses triangular shaped traffic island [where public conveniences are situated] to David Cowley's sweetshop just over a mile away from station.
4.12pm: Enters sweetshop and enquires of Mrs Dinwoodie if she knows where Tarleton/Talbot/Carleton thoroughfare is. Mrs Dinwoodie advises him of a Tarleton Street which is in the City Centre [off Church Street].
4.15pm: Hanratty leaves sweetshop and abandons his search for Aspinall's address. He decides to walk back to Lime Street Station. It is a straight route with no turnings whatsoever.

All times are approximate of course.

[Graham]

To quote some notes from Leonard Miller:

JH said initially that he had arrived in Liverpool at around 3.30pm. During the trial, he changed this to 'between 4.00 and 5.00pm'. Possibly because someone had told him the actual times that trains from Euston arrived in Liverpool, and these times didn't match his original statement re: time of arrival. A train did, in fact, arrive in Liverpool from Euston at 3.25pm, but there was also a train that left Euston at 12.15pm and arrived at Lime Street at about 5.00pm or shortly afterwards.

JH said he went to the Lime Street Left Luggage at about 5.00pm, this being after he'd had a wash-and-brush-up and a cup of tea in the buffet.

Mrs Dinwoodie said that the man she 'remembered' came into her shop at some time between 3.30 and 4.00pm. Therefore if the timings of both JH and Mrs D are correct, the man Mrs D saw could not have been JH. Mrs D also said that the man came in just as the evening newspapers were being delivered, at a little after 4.00pm, so by this statement the man could not have been JH. According to his statement, at that time he was still on the train, or about to get off.

JH said that in the shop were 'a woman and a young girl' - not two young girls.

Mrs D said that the man's accent was very difficult for her to understand - she said he could have been Scots or Welsh. Sherrard said that JH's accent was that of a 'normal and average young Londoner', and an independent expert who examined JH said that his accent was without any 'dialectic traits'.

The thing is, JH knew Liverpool reasonably well. If he genuinely wished to find Tarleton Street, Carlton Road, or whatever, all he had to do was take a taxi from Lime Street. He used taxi's on a regular basis in London, so why not in Liverpool?

The man Mrs Dinwoodie saw, or claimed she saw, was not James Hanratty.

Graham

[Sherlock Houses]

Mrs Dinwoodie said that the man she 'remembered' came into her shop at some time between 3.30 and 4.00pm. Therefore if the timings of both JH and

Mrs Dinwoodie said the man [who she identified as James Hanratty] entered the shop shortly after 4 o'clock, soon after the Liverpool Echos had arrived.
It is very important to note that she [like most everyone] would have had no reason to recall the exact time of a seemingly insignificant incident which had occured weeks upon weeks before. It's not as if she was thinking to herself that Tuesday afternoon "I must make a note of the time I am speaking with this man because somebody is going to ask me all about it in 2 months time."

[Spitfire]

Mrs Dinwoodie said the man [who she identified as James Hanratty] entered the shop shortly after 4 o'clock, soon after the Liverpool Echos had arrived.
It is very important to note that she [like most everyone] would have had no reason to recall the exact time of a seemingly insignificant incident which had occured weeks upon weeks before. It's not as if she was thinking to herself that Tuesday afternoon "I must make a note of the time I am speaking with this man because somebody is going to ask me all about it in 2 months time."

Very true, but equally she would have no reason to commit to memory what he looked like.

[Sherlock Houses]

Very true, but equally she would have no reason to commit to memory what he looked like.

It was a face to face encounter with Hanratty under good lighting conditions. She would have had infinitely more reason to recall his face [due to the peculiar circumstances of the incident] than the exact time of the incident.

[OneRound]

... The man Mrs Dinwoodie saw, or claimed she saw, was not James Hanratty.

Graham

Hi Graham - intrigued by your words ''or claimed she saw''. I would be interested and appreciative to learn what rests behind them.

Many thanks,

OneRound

[moste]

Hi Graham, "The man Mrs Dinwoodie saw, or claimed she saw, was not James Hanratty."

So the man Barbara Ford saw, or claimed she saw, was not Hanratty either?

[Graham]

OK, let me add a little more detail:

- JH said he caught 'either the 10.55 or the 11.55 train' from Euston. No train to Liverpool left Euston at these times.

- Miller feels that JH actually caught the 10.35 train which got into Lime Street at 3.25pm. Woffinden states that JH 'probably' arrived at Euston via black cab at about 10.45, in which case as I understand it he would have had to wait for the next train which was the 12.15pm.

- If JH arrived at Lime Street at 3.25pm, was he really able to have a cup of tea in the buffet, a wash-and-brush-up, and check his case in at Left Luggage, and still get to the sweet shop at just after 4.00pm which is the time Mrs Dinwoodie said the evening papers were delivered, and the time she says 'the man' came into the shop. (Note he took a black cab from Paddington to Euston, so why didn't he do likewise when he arrived at Lime Street looking for Carlton or Tarleton or Whatever Road?)

- if he caught the 12.15 train, then he wouldn't have arrived at Lime Street until 4.45pm, which absolutely doesn't fit in with the time Mrs D says she met 'the man'. Paul Foot thinks JH caught the 10.20 fast train, arriving at 2.22pm which means JH could have been in the sweetshop by 4.00pm; however, JH's defence were satisfied that he caught the 12.15pm train, arriving at 4.45pm, and I can only assume that JH accepted this as he was so vague about the train times anyway.

- JH said:

...went into sweetshop and tobacconist. Asked for Carlton or Tarlton Avenue. Woman said no Carlton Ave around here. Woman and young girl in shop. Woman came to door of shop and showed me the nearby bus-stop. The sweetshop is in Scotland road opposite a picture house.......I did not get to Carlton Road. I could not find the street

- there were 29 sweetshops in Scotland Road. At No 408, the Cowleys' shop, Mrs D had been assisting on 21 and 22 August. She said she remembered a man asking for Carlton or Tarlton Road or something of the kind. I think someone on these boards did ascertain whether No 408 was or was not opposite a cinema, but unfortunately I can't remember the result.

- Mrs D thought that 'the man' had come into the shop between 3.30 and 4.00 pm on the Monday. Barbara Ford had helped Mrs D only on the Monday, but had been at the shop on the Tuesday with her friend Linda Walton. JH referred to only one young girl in the shop.

- Mrs D was shown only one photo by DC Pugh, that of JH. I feel sure that Mrs D, who seems a very kindly lady, but was elderly and unwell, was only trying to 'help' the police. I say for the Nth time, had DC Pugh shown Mrs D a series of different photos, and had the good lady selected JH from them, we wouldn't be debating this issue of JH's guilt or innocence. I trust DC Pugh got the sound bollocking he deserved.

- JH and Mrs D's statements as to what actually occurred in the shop differ in significant detail. Mrs D said she was serving another man with cigarettes when 'the man' entered the shop; JH mentioned no other customer at the time of his visit.

Obviously JH's supporters accept this part of the Liverpool Alibi and they are free to do so. I do not accept it, and I am free to do so.

Graham

[Graham]

Hi Graham - intrigued by your words ''or claimed she saw''. I would be interested and appreciative to learn what rests behind them.

Many thanks,

OneRound

Hi OR,

nothing sinister - I just meant that after so long a time had passed she might have been mistaken, that's all. I think she was mistaken, others do not think so. Like I keep saying, showing a potential witness just one photo is very poor police practice.

Graham

[OneRound]

Hi OR,

nothing sinister - I just meant that after so long a time had passed she might have been mistaken, that's all. I think she was mistaken, others do not think so. Like I keep saying, showing a potential witness just one photo is very poor police practice.

Graham

Thanks, Graham. Noted and understood. I had wondered if there was some hint of a suggestion that Mrs Dinwoodie hadn't seen anyone at all.

I completely agree with you about DC Pugh and the showing of only one photo to Mrs D. That really clouded the issue to the disadvantage of all sides. If she had selected the wrong photo or been unable to tell, that important part of the defence would have significantly crumbled. However, if she had picked Hanratty out of, say, ten photos, that would have considerably increased the chances of Jim heading to the Rehearsal Club for a couple of Babychams in celebration post trial.

For me, so much of the problem with Hanratty's supposed alibi and defence is that it lacks any time bound features. Pure speculation on my part but I do wonder if the sweet shop account resulted from him seeking an alibi for the Tuesday from a pal of broadly similar looks; only to be told ''sorry can't help there but could give you a good one for Monday'' and Jim replying, ''that'll do, no one will be sure of the day''.

Best regards,

OneRound

[Spitfire]

However, if she had picked Hanratty out of, say, ten photos, that would have considerably increased the chances of Jim heading to the Rehearsal Club for a couple of Babychams in celebration post trial.

If acquitted Jim was going nowhere but back on remand for his various and admitted burglaries.

[Spitfire]

A good synopsis Graham but one other fact that should be mentioned is that Mrs D could hardly understand the man who inquired for directions due to his heavy Scottish or Welsh accent (as perceived by Mrs D).

One curious thing is that if Mrs D was right and other customers eventually dealt with the Hanratty lookalike, then why were none of them found?

[Sherlock Houses]

I completely agree with you about DC Pugh and the showing of only one photo to Mrs D. That really clouded the issue to the disadvantage of all sides. If she had selected the wrong photo or been unable to tell, that important part of the defence would have significantly crumbled. However, if she had picked Hanratty out of, say, ten photos, that would have considerably increased the chances of Jim heading to the Rehearsal Club for a couple of Babychams in celebration post trial.

Showing Hanratty just the one photo was indeed very careless of the Liverpool police who were acting on behalf of Acott [unbeknown to the defence team]. You seem to have forgotten however that shortly after this initial photo identification of Hanratty, Mrs Dinwoodie was shown a series of photographs [which included a different photo of Hanratty] and confirmed her previous identification.

To quote from Paul Foot's book [from page 196]......


"Soon after confirming the one photograph, Mrs Dinwoodie was again shown several photographs, including one of Hanratty different to the one she had confirmed in the first place. Once again, promptly and without any doubt, Mrs Dinwoodie selected the photograph of Hanratty as the man who had come into her shop."

[caz]

None of it quite adds up, does it? Clearly Hanratty - if not his staunchest defenders here - must have realised the various Liverpool inconsistences were potentially fatal for him or he would never have switched to spending the murder night in Rhyl instead, even if the timings of his bus journey there from Liverpool were viable.

I can understand entirely how Hanratty would have been unsure of his train times, exact conversations and so on, when trying to recall events at a later date. We've all been there.

But other factors can't be explained away so easily. His accent for me is a biggie. If Mrs D was able to recognise the man asking for directions from Hanratty's photo, how did she manage to misremember his accent as 'heavy Scottish or Welsh'? Was he trying to disguise his cockney accent for some reason - an accent that should have stuck out like a sore thumb in Liverpool and been instantly recognisable to pretty much everyone but the permanently housebound? I moved to the West Country from London four years ago, and didn't think I had much of an accent, but I soon discovered the locals knew damned well I was a Londoner the moment I opened my mouth.

Another biggie is the taxi observation. It's a very good point. If Hanratty had no clue where this street was, and arguably didn't fancy being ripped off by a black cab driver taking him there via Southport, all he had to do was ask the driver how best to get there on foot or by bus. If he was given a V sign for his pains, he could have tried another, then another, and if he still got no joy his next best port of call was back inside Lime St station, where someone, be they a passenger, porter, ticket office clerk, left luggage man (!) or cafeteria waitress, surely would have been able to point him in the right direction. Yet he leaves the station and takes a bus - in a random direction - to ask in a sweet shop on the Scotland Road? Then, when Mrs D tells him about Tarleton Street, he heads back towards the city centre but instead of trying the street in question he returns to the station and catches a bus to Rhyl? (There is coincidentally a Tarleton Street in Rhyl too. It's a pity Hanratty wasn't able to take advantage of that to claim he got his towns as confused as his street names.)

I can see how he might end up in a cornfield when looking for houses to burgle. No sense of direction - or purpose.

Love,

Caz
X

[NickB]

So it appears the possible London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street train times were:

dep 10.20 am - arr 2.22 pm
dep 10.35 am - arr 3.25 pm
dep 12.15 pm - arr 4.45 pm

Hanratty said that after he purchased his ticket at Euston he found that the train had not arrived. He bought some magazines from a newspaper stall and read them over a coffee while he waited for the train. He then checked the platform again but the train still had not arrived so he went back for a tea. He also bought a tube of toothpaste and spoke with a porter.

This makes it unlikely he got the 10.35, because it sounds like he arrived more than 15 minutes before the train’s departure. If he arrived before 10.20, why would he choose the 10.35?

In any case, although we can ruminate here about what train he would need to have caught to fit in with the sweetshop timing, when we consider how the jury viewed this matter we have to bear in mind that they were told he arrived on the 4.45.