A6 Rebooted

[Limehouse]

Well if Hanratty continued to lie after signing the statement prepared by Sherrard that he must be "absolutely truthful" about his alibi, then he deserved all he got.

At least when he died by hanging he would not have the stain on his character
of having slept the night in a bathroom.

What a nasty, nasty comment.

And after a run of very interesting posts (Welcome Kerry, and thank you for your fascinating input) too. So disappointing. Makes me want to just log out and forget this site ever existed.

[Sherlock Houses]

What a nasty, nasty comment.

And after a run of very interesting posts (Welcome Kerry, and thank you for your fascinating input) too. So disappointing. Makes me want to just log out and forget this site ever existed.

I can empathise completely with your feelings Limehouse. My advice would be to give a wide berth to such posters as it's not worth the time, effort or aggro responding to such spiteful comments.

A very nasty and hateful comment indeed.


PS. A belated welcome to Kerry and Penhalion our two new posters for their valuable and interesting comments.

[GUT]

Some people on this site aren't worth the time of day and should just be ignored.

[Kerry1983]

Fascinating first hand knowledge of ex Ingledene

I have a thought... James slept IN the bathtub, and along with the landlady was too embarrassed to say so. knowing that the exact room he stayed overnight in, was completely irrelevant only that he spent the night, was enough

Hi Moste,

He could well have slept in the bathtub. I remember it being quite a big one, not the normal size of baths these days.
I used it myself (not to sleep in ) before we had the new bathroom fitted and i always liked how big and deep it was!
Did he ever say that he slept in that room or just that he remembers seeing the green bath?

[Kerry1983]

This is what Woffinden suggested in his book.

If Foot visited Ingledene and saw that the green bathroom was at the front of the house, it was disingenuous of him to propose that Hanratty slept there because it directly contradicted Hanratty's statement that his bedroom was at the back. Perhaps Woffinden realised this and tried to square the circle. But Hanratty had not said anything about moving to a different room on the second night.

I don't think Hanratty ever said that he slept in the bathroom, just that he remembers seeing the bath. Is that correct?
He could have spent the 2 nights in the rear bedroom, which overlooked the courtyard and had just been looking around the house and saw it? Or maybe he was even given permission by Mrs Jones to use it?
There does seem to be a lot of evidence that he did stay in this house at some point, but no evidence to say it was on the dates in question.

[Kerry1983]

PS. A belated welcome to Kerry and Penhalion our two new posters for their valuable and interesting comments.

Thank you Sherlock

[Spitfire]

I don't think Hanratty ever said that he slept in the bathroom, just that he remembers seeing the bath. Is that correct?
He could have spent the 2 nights in the rear bedroom, which overlooked the courtyard and had just been looking around the house and saw it? Or maybe he was even given permission by Mrs Jones to use it?
There does seem to be a lot of evidence that he did stay in this house at some point, but no evidence to say it was on the dates in question.

There is plenty of evidence that Hanratty was in Rhyl in July 1961. I find the evidence that he was ever in Ingledene totally unimpressive. However, he may well have stayed in Ingledene or a similar boarding house on an earlier visit but would have been able to see the type of houses offering accommodation from walking past them. He was. on his own admission, a habitué of boarding houses, in his evidence in chief he was reluctant to descend to particulars, as he had been in so many houses.

One can see from the road that Ingledene (and other houses offering accommodation) did not have a front garden. The odds were that it would have a yard at the back; it's a fair guess that there would be a hatstand in the hall; another fair guess is that there would be a plant pot with a green plant according to JH (artificial pink orchids according to Gillbanks, investigating on behalf of Hanratty's solicitors); another fair guess is that there would be a landlady, and she would be middle aged, it's a matter of debate as to how accurate was Hanratty's description of her. The bathroom having a green bath was mentioned, but its location was fudged as being at the top part of the house. He didn't want to commit there. In fact had he stayed in room 5 then the bathroom would be right next door to his room! He didn't mention this, nor obviously did he mention that he stayed in the bathroom itself.

I make no apologies for having no sympathy for James Hanratty.

[Spitfire]

This is what Woffinden suggested in his book.

If Foot visited Ingledene and saw that the green bathroom was at the front of the house, it was disingenuous of him to propose that Hanratty slept there because it directly contradicted Hanratty's statement that his bedroom was at the back. Perhaps Woffinden realised this and tried to square the circle. But Hanratty had not said anything about moving to a different room on the second night.

In fairness to Foot, he does consider that there were three alternatives to explain Hanratty's occupation of a room at Ingledene; (1) Hanratty had Brenda Harris's room (No5) for both nights; (2) Hanratty had two nights in the bathroom; and (3) he had one night in the bathroom and one night in the room (No1) vacated by the Suchs on Wednesday morning: Page 234 Foot's book 1988 Penguin edition.

[NickB]

I don't think Hanratty ever said that he slept in the bathroom, just that he remembers seeing the bath. Is that correct?

Yes. Note it was the prosecution who wrested from Grace Jones that there was a bed in the bathroom, as they thought this discredited his description of the room.

The problem with the theory that Hanratty stayed at Ingledene at another time is that his only known visit to Rhyl prior to the murder is when he stayed at Terry Evans house. When Hanratty was cross-examined by the prosecution (who had only been informed of the Rhyl alibi a few hours earlier) they suggested that he was remembering features of Evans house, but Hanratty pointed out that Evans lived on a council estate. You may know Gwyniryn Avenue.

[Graham]

Hi Kerry,

sorry if this has already been addressed (I haven't caught up with all the new posts yet), but you asked if Hanratty said he could hear the trains from Ingledene. He did say he could. Could you kindly confirm if this is possible?

Thanks,

Graham

[ansonman]

Witnesses to innocence

Regarding the Rhyl alibi, the strongest witness was Margaret Walker, who lived in a street just behind Mrs Jones guesthouse. Even before Hanratty was hanged, she was telling private detectives that a young Londoner had come to her house late one evening in the summer of 1961 looking for lodgings. She was able to fix the date as 22 August, because she remembered that a family row had taken place the following Friday.

Two other women in the same street, Mrs Ivy Vincent and Mrs Betty Davies, also remembered a young man looking for lodgings in the dark.

Christopher Larman said that he had been approached by a young Londoner in a Rhyl street late one August evening. He was able to fix the date exactly. He was going to say goodbye to some friends before leaving Rhyl (which he could prove) on 23 August. He recognised Hanratty from a picture in the newspapers on the day he was convicted, and went voluntarily to the police station to make a statement.

Charles Jones, a Rhyl newspaper seller, remembered a young Londoner getting off a bus late one August evening and asking if he knew the whereabouts of a fairground worker.

Finally, Trevor Dutton, a poultry farmer from Abergele, said he had come to Rhyl on the morning of 23 August to pay money into his account. He had kept his bank book, with the payment stamped with the date: 23 August 1961. As he walked along the sea front, a young man in a herringbone suit (just like the one Hanratty said he was wearing at the time) approached him and offered a gold watch for sale. He too had gone to the police when he read in the trial reports that Hanratty said he was selling a watch at the time of the murder, but his statement was not even passed on to the defence.

Three of the new witnesses - Walker, Larman and Dutton, were absolutely certain about the date and they were all able to provide convincing evidence to back their statements up. Furthermore, there were no other two days in the whole of July, August and September 1961 when all these witnesses were in Rhyl at the same time.

This series of coincidences, the evidence of six new witnesses and the fact that no one has ever come forward effectively to refute the overall picture, point to only one conclusion: Hanratty was in Rhyl on 22 and 23 Auguast, as he said he was.

Ansonman

[Sherlock Houses]

The problem with the theory that Hanratty stayed at Ingledene at another time is that his only known visit to Rhyl prior to the murder is when he stayed at Terry Evans house. When Hanratty was cross-examined by the prosecution (who had only been informed of the Rhyl alibi a few hours earlier) they suggested that he was remembering features of Evans house, but Hanratty pointed out that Evans lived on a council estate. You may know Gwyniryn Avenue.

Just a slight correction with regards to Terry Evans's address. It was Gwynfryn Avenue.

The following pertinent exchange between Hanratty and Swanwick at the Bedord Trial [on February 7th] might prove interesting to posters.......


-'You have been told that we are going to see Mr Terence Evans. Did you stay that night with him ?'
-"I stayed at his house, yes."
-'Have you told us everything you can remember about the boarding house ?'
-"No, there are little bits more that I can remember."
-'Oh, well let's have them.'
-"I know at this stage that a lot depends on this boarding house. You are trying to suggest that it does not exist. My only hope is for a miracle and so I will try to put my mind back six months. That's what I have got to do, six months. Well, I remember there was no front garden to this house. In the morning I looked out the window and found a small courtyard."
-'At the front or the back ?'
-"At the back. They are the two items which I never told Mr Sherrard this morning.
-'You have just remembered them ?'
-"Sir, this is a bit of a strain on me, standing here like this."
-'Anything more come to you in the witness box just now ?'
-"About the house, sir, no. That's all I can remember."
-'Do you remember, for instance, what the paper was like on the wall of the room in which you slept ?'
-"No, I will be quite fair with you, I can't."
-'Do you remember the colour of the carpet ?'
-"No, I don't."
-'Can you remember the name of the street ?'
-"No sir, I can't. If I could I would not have given Mr Acott the false alibi."
-'When you stayed your night with Mr Evans in July, did you know the address where he was ?'
-"No sir, if I had known that I would have had no trouble in finding it."
-'Are you sure you have not taken the details of Evans's house and pretended it was this boarding-house ?'
-"I make this quite clear. Evans's house is a council house and not a boarding-house. He lives on a council estate."
-'Are you sure you have not transposed the details of Evans's house and the boarding-house ?'
-"The only way you can be sure is to check it yourself."

[Kerry1983]

Yes. Note it was the prosecution who wrested from Grace Jones that there was a bed in the bathroom, as they thought this discredited his description of the room.

The problem with the theory that Hanratty stayed at Ingledene at another time is that his only known visit to Rhyl prior to the murder is when he stayed at Terry Evans house. When Hanratty was cross-examined by the prosecution (who had only been informed of the Rhyl alibi a few hours earlier) they suggested that he was remembering features of Evans house, but Hanratty pointed out that Evans lived on a council estate. You may know Gwyniryn Avenue.

Was he asked about other occasions that he stayed in Rhyl and he only mentioned the time at Terry Evans' house?

I've just googled Gwiniryn Avenue and there doesn't seem to be one in Rhyl, there is however a Gwynfryn Avenue which is indeed on the council estate and it's not that far from here, 10 mins walk. Would that be the one?

[Kerry1983]

Hi Kerry,

sorry if this has already been addressed (I haven't caught up with all the new posts yet), but you asked if Hanratty said he could hear the trains from Ingledene. He did say he could. Could you kindly confirm if this is possible?

Thanks,

Graham

Hi Graham,

Yes i can hear the trains from the rooms at the back of the house. Mainly my now bathroom which is further back than the others. I believe it used to be Room Number 1 although i'm not too sure as from what i've learnt, the rooms were numbered differently to what they were when i moved in and still are now.
It's not possible to hear the trains from any rooms at the front and definitely not the old bathroom.

Thanks,
Kerry.

[Kerry1983]

Regarding the Rhyl alibi, the strongest witness was Margaret Walker, who lived in a street just behind Mrs Jones guesthouse. Even before Hanratty was hanged, she was telling private detectives that a young Londoner had come to her house late one evening in the summer of 1961 looking for lodgings. She was able to fix the date as 22 August, because she remembered that a family row had taken place the following Friday.

Two other women in the same street, Mrs Ivy Vincent and Mrs Betty Davies, also remembered a young man looking for lodgings in the dark.

Christopher Larman said that he had been approached by a young Londoner in a Rhyl street late one August evening. He was able to fix the date exactly. He was going to say goodbye to some friends before leaving Rhyl (which he could prove) on 23 August. He recognised Hanratty from a picture in the newspapers on the day he was convicted, and went voluntarily to the police station to make a statement.

Charles Jones, a Rhyl newspaper seller, remembered a young Londoner getting off a bus late one August evening and asking if he knew the whereabouts of a fairground worker.

Finally, Trevor Dutton, a poultry farmer from Abergele, said he had come to Rhyl on the morning of 23 August to pay money into his account. He had kept his bank book, with the payment stamped with the date: 23 August 1961. As he walked along the sea front, a young man in a herringbone suit (just like the one Hanratty said he was wearing at the time) approached him and offered a gold watch for sale. He too had gone to the police when he read in the trial reports that Hanratty said he was selling a watch at the time of the murder, but his statement was not even passed on to the defence.

Three of the new witnesses - Walker, Larman and Dutton, were absolutely certain about the date and they were all able to provide convincing evidence to back their statements up. Furthermore, there were no other two days in the whole of July, August and September 1961 when all these witnesses were in Rhyl at the same time.

This series of coincidences, the evidence of six new witnesses and the fact that no one has ever come forward effectively to refute the overall picture, point to only one conclusion: Hanratty was in Rhyl on 22 and 23 Auguast, as he said he was.

Ansonman

Hi Ansonman,

Thank you for all that information, i wasn't aware of any of it. I still need to get chance to read up on everything. That seems to me to be overwhelming evidence that he was here when he said he was. Why was none of this taken seriously by the police?