A6 Rebooted

[Victor]

Once Hanratty had been exhumed, the FSS just cherry picked alleles that matched Hanratty, and accounted for those that didn't as allelic drop out. Any other stocahstic effects such as allelic drop in, increased stutter and baseline noise could all be falsely included to match Hanratty's profile.

Hi Derrick,

If your scenario above is accurate then I would doubt the LCN results too, but as you are wildly speculating then we don't have to be as negative. As you pointed out the LCN results were known before Hanratty was exhumed, therefore the profiles of VS and MG (his AB secretory semen was identified in 1961) could be extracted from the results and the remaining alleles would therefore be the rapists. If this matched point for point Hanratty's DNA profile then your "cherry picked" and stochastic effects can be totally ignored.

However, we don't have the exact results but Bindman does and presumably Woffinden too.

MG's DNA was only attributed to him. Somebody recently said that his son may have provided a DNA sample for referential purposes. But that is not good enough in this case.
A full referential profile of MG is the only thing that would be satisfactory. I have no record of MG being exhumed so that still leaves MG's profile as being completely uncertain.

MG was a civil servant so presumably had his physical exams, and he had seen his doctor concerning his mental state, so perhaps a blood sample or similar was retained. Or a sample was kept from his autopsy. There are many possibilities for obtaining a full referential profile of MG without resorting to exhumation.

As you are so insistent on this point, presumably you are in full agreement that Hanratty's exhumation was necessary.

This still leaves the unknown factor.

How many of VS, MG and JH's alleles where the same at any loci?

Noone knows.

Well Bindman would know - and FSS.

With LCN it is certain that unreliable allele peak heights make mixed profiles impossible to interpret reliably. Certainly not reliable enough to put before a court of law.

I completely disagree - difficult and contentious maybe, but impossible is pure exaggeration.

The comparitive database is very small and is certainly not comprehensive as Sir Alec Jeffreys is at pains to point out. Jeffreys opposes the NDNAD in its current government controlled guise. He supports a totally inclusive NDNAD overseen by a completely independent body.

I don't see that happening any day soon though!

NDNAD is small because only those convicted of a crime are on it, plus those accused of a crime until they are exonerated. Here we get into a personal freedom topic, but I would tend to agree that provided we could be sure that the database was used solely for investigative reasons and preferably the analysts were "blind" to the source of the comparisons, then I would support a totally inclusive NDNAD too - the NHS would certainly benefit from it, in preventitive and diagnostic ways.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

Very impressive paintings Norma

2] A young man,resembling James Hanratty, came to Mrs Margaret Walker"s house at 12 South Kinmel St.It was after lighting up time on August 22nd 1961 and he was wanting B&B.She signals to her neighbours house,Mrs Ivy Vincent"s at no 23 opposite and suggests Ivy might be able to put him up.
Hanratty remembered she had a "big dog"---she had an alsation.

Hi Norma,

What makes Mrs Walker's testimony even more impressive is something she said in her original statement of February 8th 1962.....

"I was standing by the gate of my home when a man came up the street and asked me if I could put him up for a night or two nights. He said he didn't mind sleeping anywhere, settee or anything."

He probably said a similar thing when he knocked at Ingledene.

These were exactly Hanratty's sleeping arrangements when he stayed with the France's, Louise Anderson and Terry Evans.

[Victor]

What makes Mrs Walker's testimony even more impressive is something she said in her original statement of February 8th 1962.....

"I was standing by the gate of my home when a man came up the street and asked me if I could put him up for a night or two nights. He said he didn't mind sleeping anywhere, settee or anything."

Hi James,

One of many young men looking for accomodation in a seaside town in the height of summer, it's not good enough for a decent alibi.

KR,
Vic.

[RonIpstone]

"....He said he didn't mind sleeping anywhere, settee or anything."

He probably said a similar thing when he knocked at Ingledene.

These were exactly Hanratty's sleeping arrangements when he stayed with the France's, Louise Anderson and Terry Evans.

Hang on a moment, I thought it was part of the Hanratty Appreciation Society's creed that Jim was shown the attic bathroom at Ingledene and left his luggage there while he went in search of better accommodation. Remember that the man seen by Ivy Vincent, Margaret Walker and Chris Larman did not have any luggage, so where was Jim's case? If it had been left at Ingledene is it seriously suggested Jim traipsed around Rhyl looking for a settee to sleep on rather than having to sleep in a bed in a room with a bath?

[Natalie Severn]

.......Remember that the man seen by Ivy Vincent, Margaret Walker and Chris Larman did not have any luggage, so where was Jim's case?

Foot-page 234 -In the lawyer"s notes,scribbled on a rough piece of paper while Hanratty talked in his cell about his visit to Rhyl,there occurs this passage:

"Left little leather hyde case.Landlady about 50 like my mother.I was wearing double breasted striped suit.Said I could leave my case,I will pick it up later".

At this point, it appears that Mrs Jones had said she had no room to let after all,the rules applying to B&B"s in Rhyl were that bathrooms should not have beds in them.

[Natalie Severn]

I can believe everything tallied with what Hanratty said, but what Larman and the other witnesses said doesn't - for example, Larman contends he met the strangely haired stranger before Hanratty claims he left Liverpool.

Hi Vic,
Hanratty was not the only one vague about time .Ok,the coach could not have left Liverpool later than 6 - 6.30 pm.but Mrs Walker also said ,"it was about 7.30 pm" when the young man who looked like Hanratty ,walked down her street.Well actually it couldnt have been if,as she said,"it was getting dark and the lights had come on".The lights don"t come on in Rhyl in the third week of August until well after sunset which is around 8.30 pm.
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Some more pictures of South Kinmel Street showing Mrs Walker"s old house and Mrs Vincents. Mrs Betty Davies lived at number 19 directly opposite Mrs Walker"s house and her mother-in-law Mrs Margaret Davies lived at number 27 which is the house running perpendicular to the others at the end. long view.Rear of house at upper right of picture is next door to Ingledene in Kinmel St.

Kinmel St from Windsor Hotel looking towards picture house

Mrs Ivy Vincent"s old house

Mrs Walker"s old house

[Natalie Severn]

Last one!
Mrs Betty Davies lived at number 19 Sth Kinmel Street almost opposite to Mrs Walkers[about half way down street.Mrs Margaret Davies her mother-in-law who also made a statement ,lived in the house at the end-number 27,which is placed perpendicular to the others.

[Natalie Severn]

To get to the council house where Terry Evans lived in Gwynfryn Avenue and where Hanratty stayed just the one night in July is quite an obstacle course.From Kinmel Street you have to cross the bridge turn 1st right at end of bridge then weave your way past several proper roads and several dead end back entries that have been turned into a sort of industrial estate of working garages and lock up garages-and remember Terry took him back in his taxi at night-presumably-to stay one night only.So tricky to find after only one brief visit.To complicate things even more his road makes a square shape,so how the numbering of the houses works goodness knows.

[Victor]

-and remember Terry took him back in his taxi at night-presumably-to stay one night only.So tricky to find after only one brief visit.

Hi Norma,

Didn't Hanratty walk back from the house the next morning? Evans had to go and pay a fine or something so left Jim alone to abscond with his shoes. If he found his own way then it would be significantly easier than you are making out.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

Didn't Hanratty walk back from the house the next morning? Evans had to go and pay a fine or something so left Jim alone to abscond with his shoes. If he found his own way then it would be significantly easier than you are making out.

KR,
Vic.

Yes I am sure he did.But anybody in Rhyl would have been able to direct him back to the most central landmark in Rhyl which is Rhyl Railway Station and the Coach Station next to it.[then and now though the coach depot is now on the other side of Kinmel St.].
However I really do not think that Hanratty would have correctly recalled the Welsh named "Gwynfryn Avenue" where Terry lived.He may have remembered it was near the railway but would he have realised it was way the other side of town on the opposite side of the railway lines?I have often wondered if the reason he landed in the tiny dead end of South Kinmel Street which runs alongside the railway was because he was actually trying to locate Terry"s house which he knew to be near the railway!They are two very different parts of town.

[Victor]

But anybody in Rhyl would have been able to direct him back to the most central landmark in Rhyl which is Rhyl Railway Station and the Coach Station next to it.

Hi Norma,

Yes people would be able to direct him back to the railway station in most towns, but he would still have at least a general idea of whereabouts the house was, and he would be unlikely to go to the wrong side of the railway the next time he was there.

However I really do not think that Hanratty would have correctly recalled the Welsh named "Gwynfryn Avenue" where Terry lived.He may have remembered it was near the railway but would he have realised it was way the other side of town on the opposite side of the railway lines?

He wouldn't need to remember the name, just a rough idea of where it was, and if he remembered it was by the railway lines, then it's quite straightforward to follow the tracks until he reached a familiar location.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Not really Victor.When our shower went wrong I had to go to a shop called "Vickers " not far from the end of the bridge but away from the main road.I was following my neighbours directions and got there eventually because everyone but me knew where "Vickers" was.I was completely unable to find it a few weeks later though- Hanratty would have been faced with the same sort of warren of misleading little entries and passages off the main road but having no road names.
Gwynfryn Avenue is way off the beaten track and goes round in a circle or square.

[Natalie Severn]

He wouldn't need to remember the name, just a rough idea of where it was, and if he remembered it was by the railway lines, then it's quite straightforward to follow the tracks until he reached a familiar location.

KR,
Vic.

Vic, I think several " assumptions" are being made here.
How do we even know whether Hanratty had made a mental note on his previous, one day, overnight visit to Rhyl ,of exactly which way the railway tracks ran? How do we know he knew therefore which side of the tracks Terry"s house was situated?
Don"t forget Hanratty arrived in Rhyl by coach and the point here is that he could left the coach at one of two stops in Rhyl.He could either have been dropped off at the stop near River Street and Aquarium Street on the West Parade and closer to where the Ocean Beach Fairground stood OR he could have been dropped off at the stop at the old bus station ie at the junction of Kinmel St/Rhyl High St near the railway station.If he was dropped off near River St/Aquarium St then he probably headed for the fairground further along the seafront to see if he could spot Terry and his taxi.

[Victor]

I was following my neighbours directions and got there eventually because everyone but me knew where "Vickers" was.I was completely unable to find it a few weeks later though- Hanratty would have been faced with the same sort of warren of misleading little entries and passages off the main road but having no road names.

Hi Norma,

Interesting anecdote but of limited significance because other people can offer examples of exactly the opposite. There are two significant differences between yourself and Hanratty: Your age, and your gender. Both of these factors would tend to put you at a disadvantage compared to Jim in this circumstance.

KR,
Vic.