A6 Rebooted

[OneRound]

Hi John - that's a cracking post.

My guess - and I don't claim it's anything more - is that the Prosecution considered the details supplied at trial (particularly the bus timetable) had already rubbished Hanratty's claim of when he arrived in Rhyl. If the Prosecution had then proceeded to check with the conductor as to whether or not he was on the bus, it might have suggested to the jury that the Prosecution needed reassurance that he couldn't have been. Shades of trying to ride two horses, as I suggested recently about a part of the Bentley defence.

The Prosecution may have concluded they were probably best off leaving this matter alone and particularly if the conductor couldn't give a definitive answer as to Hanratty not being on the bus.

Similarly, unless the Defence were to receive confirmation from the conductor that Hanratty was definitely on the bus, questions from them along this line probably wouldn't have helped their client either. A reply amounting to ''Not sure'' or ''Can't remember'' might have been more harmful than helpful if asked by the Defence.

I don't suggest the above is satisfactory. I think it was Ed who posted that a trial is more of a contest than a search for the truth.

Best regards,

OneRound

[Graham]

According to Woffinden the woman shouted out that someone ought to ask the conductor on the number 36 bus, which I always took as a reference to the bus that ran local to the Vienna Hotel. I never did figure out precisely what she meant, assuming her words were correctly reproduced. I've often wondered if she meant that the conductor saw the gun being stashed under the back seat, and not by Hanratty, but kept it to himself. I don't think Foot mentions the incident.

Was it ever established for sure that there actually was a conductor on the bus from Liverpool to Rhyl? JH referred to it as a 'double decker coach', rather than a bus, which I would suggest implies that he was making a reference to a long-distance route - a coach - rather than a local route - a bus. When I was a nipper we used coaches quite frequently for long-distance journeys, and I'm sure that if you caught one at a bus station rather than a bus stop you paid at a ticket-office before you got on. I did the Birmingham - London run many times in the sixties, and don't recall seeing a conductor on the Midland Red coaches that I used.

If there was a conductor on the Liverpool-Rhyl coach, then given all the publicity being generated by the trial, surely he or she would have come forward, as John says. But having said that, none of the guests at Ingledene on the crucial days ever came forward either.

Graham

PS: I was due to have a knee-replacement job tomorrow - it was cancelled earlier this afternoon!

[ansonman]

Graham,

My post was most certainly not directed at you. It was directed at Moste, which is why I quoted his post immediately above my own.

Ansonman

Graham,

As you are still with us I await your apology for your earlier unwarranted assault.

Ansonman

[Limehouse]

Freckled or not? Overheated argument benefits no one. The key question is does it take us further forward.

Personally, I am prepared to accept that someone with naturally ginger hair had a propensity for freckles and that Michael Hanratty has made known an honest point. And in such an intriguing case it is thought provoking for armchair detectives like ourselves to have a new point.

But clearly it was not so distinctive as to be noticed by Mrs Dinwoodie, Grace Jones or others in Rhyl. And to my mind the brief glimpse of the gunman's face in the headlamps that Valerie Storie had would not allow her to discern his complexion . Did the headlamps shining in the gunman's face make the complexion appear 'washed out' and even the eyes 'staring'.

Talking of new points, I am interested in Hanratty's watch. According to Valerie's contradictory evidence, the gunman was always looking at his watch, then she did not recall whether or not he had a watch. Woffinden tells us the gold watch, which Hanratty was seeking to sell , did not work.

Hi Ed,

My husband (also an 'Ed') had red hair (until it turned snow white, but not as a result of being married to me, I must add) and I can confirm that he did and still does have freckles. He also has a tendency towards redness of the face, especially in the summer.

Regarding whether VS would have notice this when the gunman's face was lit up by the headlights of a passing car, I agree that the glare of the headlights may well have made his face look pale. Additionally, didn't VS state that she wasn't wearing her glasses at this point? She admitted to having poor eyesight without her glasses.

It is true that the Rhyl witnesses did not mention freckles or ruddiness, but at the same time, did they state his complexion was pale or that his eyes were icy blue and saucer-like? I am not sure on that point.

Julie

[Limehouse]

According to Woffinden the woman shouted out that someone ought to ask the conductor on the number 36 bus, which I always took as a reference to the bus that ran local to the Vienna Hotel. I never did figure out precisely what she meant, assuming her words were correctly reproduced. I've often wondered if she meant that the conductor saw the gun being stashed under the back seat, and not by Hanratty, but kept it to himself. I don't think Foot mentions the incident.

Was it ever established for sure that there actually was a conductor on the bus from Liverpool to Rhyl? JH referred to it as a 'double decker coach', rather than a bus, which I would suggest implies that he was making a reference to a long-distance route - a coach - rather than a local route - a bus. When I was a nipper we used coaches quite frequently for long-distance journeys, and I'm sure that if you caught one at a bus station rather than a bus stop you paid at a ticket-office before you got on. I did the Birmingham - London run many times in the sixties, and don't recall seeing a conductor on the Midland Red coaches that I used.

If there was a conductor on the Liverpool-Rhyl coach, then given all the publicity being generated by the trial, surely he or she would have come forward, as John says. But having said that, none of the guests at Ingledene on the crucial days ever came forward either.

Graham

PS: I was due to have a knee-replacement job tomorrow - it was cancelled earlier this afternoon!

Hi Graham,

How frustrating having your op cancelled!

I think this issue of John's concerning the Liverpool-Rhyl bus is such a good point and it's never been raised before. Certainly it's true that there might possibly have been no conductor, but surely there was a driver who received tickets when passengers boarded the bus? And, surely there were passengers who might have noticed him? I am astonished this point has never been raised before.

Julie

[Dupplin Muir]

I personally feel that the Liverpool/Rhyl alibi was actually pretty strong. I wonder how much I would remember if I went somewhere for the first time, with no particular reason to make a note of what I did and where I went, and was then asked weeks later to account for my movements and describe what I'd seen. The obsessive nit-picking over the details of Hanratty's story, both at the time and since, contrasts sharply with the bland acceptance of Alphon's alibi for the attack on Mrs Dalal.

From the prosecution's point-of-view I suspect that Hanratty was damned whatever he did: any mistakes he made were seized on to cast doubt on his account, but if he had given precise details of everything this would have been interpreted as being too perfect and would have been cited as evidence of a manufactured alibi.

[Graham]

Graham,

As you are still with us I await your apology for your earlier unwarranted assault.

Ansonman

I sent you a PM earlier today. It was not an assault.

Graham

[Graham]

Hanratty first visited Rhyl on 25 July. He worked for a short time on the dodgems at the fairground where he made friends with Terry Evans and stayed at Evans' house that night (and nicked a pair of Evans' shoes, as his own were falling apart). So he had some knowledge of Rhyl prior to the Alibi.

Graham

[ansonman]

Final words

I sent you a PM earlier today. It was not an assault.

Graham

For the benfit of other posters I will post this reply and then say no more.

Graham, included in your tirade was the following:

"How dare you accuse me of being a liar, and rude, and offensive.

In all the years I have been posting on the A6 threads I have never felt so bloody angry as I do now."

As I said before those comments and others were totally uncalled for because I had not directed any remarks to you. I was replying to somebody else. You made a mistake for which you are not prepared to acknowledge on this thread.

To decline to apologise for the above and other unjustified remarks says a great deal about you as a person and for that, you have my pity.

My apologies to the other contributors for this situation, which was none of my making. I shall make no further reference to the matter.

Ansonman

[Graham]

Ansonman,

I made a mistake for which I am sorry. I am not going to grovel.

Your remarks about Valerie Storie whether aimed at me or anyone else were unwarranted.

End of story.

Let's get on with our lives.

Graham

[Spitfire]

For the benfit of other posters I will post this reply and then say no more.

Graham, included in your tirade was the following:

"How dare you accuse me of being a liar, and rude, and offensive.

In all the years I have been posting on the A6 threads I have never felt so bloody angry as I do now."

As I said before those comments and others were totally uncalled for because I had not directed any remarks to you. I was replying to somebody else. You made a mistake for which you are not prepared to acknowledge on this thread.

To decline to apologise for the above and other unjustified remarks says a great deal about you as a person and for that, you have my pity.

My apologies to the other contributors for this situation, which was none of my making. I shall make no further reference to the matter.

Ansonman

But you were accusing moste of being a liar, rude and offensive. So a great deal of it was of your own making, just that Graham made a mistake in attributing your bile as being directed towards him, not moste.

By the way you and moste are on the same side of the debate. I thought that you should be aware of that.

[Limehouse]

Oh please, guys, put your bile aside and let's get on with the really important and interesting job of moving the debate forwards, or into new territory.

I would like to know what you all think the course of Hanratty's life would have been if he had:

a) been found not-guilty

b) never been 'fingered' (can't think of a better word) for the A6 crime.

Would he eventually have settled down to a reasonably blameless life or would he have carried on his bad old ways, perhaps getting involved in other sorts of crime?

Julie

[john]

Woffenden only assumes it was the 36 bus conductor due to one press report. The vast majority of the journalists did not say it was the 36 bus. Only 1 on the Sheffield Telegraph wrote that. The other national journalists do not clarify at all what bus she referred to. Again slightly mysterious.

The Police did make enquiries to all and sundry after Rhyl became the alibi. Hence the statement from Henry Parry at the Windsor Hotel. Therefore it a good bet they did ask the bus driver/conductor from Rhyl. Whilst I still think Hanratty was innocent there was 2 opportunities there and back and no one came forward to verify this from the coach at all. Worrying.

[OneRound]

Hi Julie,

Complete speculation follows on my part but that's what your post invites - and that's not a criticism.

If found not guilty, Hanratty's family would have rallied round him once more and he would have initially returned home with words along the lines of, ''I'm so sorry for what you had to go through, Mum and Dad. I'm going to be a son you can be proud of from now on.''

However - with strong shades of the window cleaning round - it wouldn't have lasted. Hanratty's learning difficulties (coupled with the lack of awareness and support for them generally in society at the time) and his low boredom threshold would have seen a return to his bad old ways. This in turn would lead to many spells in prison as he would have been a marked man as far as the police were concerned following his acquittal of Gregsten's murder.

In the early days after being pronounced not guilty, there may also have been a story sold to a Sunday newspaper as to ''How the Coppers tried to Fit Me Up for the A6 Job''. That would not have done much for Acott's blood pressure or for Hanratty's chances of successfully living on the outside.

If never ''fingered'' for the A6 crime, his bad old ways would have continued with interruptions for further spells of imprisonment. How far up the criminal ladder Hanratty would have climbed is hard to say but it should be recognised that he was never a master criminal and frankly didn't have the brains for it.

That all said, one possible saving grace could have been the fact that Jim seems to have been quite a hit with the young ladies (I'm not referring here to those who charged for their services). Although I rather doubt it, just possibly marriage and fatherhood may have resulted in some miraculous conversion.

Best regards,

OneRound

PS Ed - I'm unsure what point you're making or question you're asking about the watch. Can you expand please.

[Graham]

Hi John,

it seems that the conductor on the 36A bus at the (assumed) time JH caught it was a young lady called Pamela Patt, who apparently saw no reason for contacting the police, so presumably she saw nothing untoward. I agree with what you say - the woman in court may or may not have mentioned 'the 36 bus'. Yet another unexplained mystery to add to the long list in the A6 Case.

I'm not sure that the police were actually involved in any Rhyl investigations after JH changed his alibi. Once JH had done so Sherrard made him sign a statement to the fact that he had changed his alibi and that any consequences thereof were his and his alone. He then advised the solicitor Kleinman to organise an investigation at Rhyl, and Kleinman duly re-engaged the private investigator and retired police-officer Joe Gillbanks who had been in Liverpool trying to confirm JH's alibi in that city. I don't know if Gillbanks operated alone or had some help, but I think Terry Evans offered his assistance. Whether or not Gillbanks actually contacted the bus company I don't know, but I suspect not as time was pressing and his priority was interviewing as many people as possible in Rhyl. Gillbanks deserved a medal for his work, that's for sure.

Graham