A6 Rebooted

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Julie,
Glad you had such a great time! Sounds terrific!I often went to the Cavern when I was a young girl!
We are back in London now having had a really productive time in Rhyl.I went to see my friend in the print shop in Rhyl.She knew all the people in Kinmel Street and South Kinmel Street in the late 60"s early 70"s.The print shop is a few doors from Ingledene and so Mrs Jones and her family were close neighbours .My friend speaks very well of Mrs Jones who was a very good neighbour.Also Ivy Vincent,Mrs Davies and Margaret Walker.She says it was a very close knit community in those days and they all used to have a Saturday night get together at the club down the road near the cinema.So ofcourse she knew all about their involvement.Fascinating .
Norma

[burkhilly]

Hi Julie

I'm glad you enjoyed your trip to my home town! It really is a wonderful city - with plenty of historical buildings and stories.

Indeed there is a Tarleton Street in Liverpool's town centre, which is difficult to find. Having said that, Scotland Road is only a short bus ride away, maybe five minutes!

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie

I'm glad you enjoyed your trip to my home town! It really is a wonderful city - with plenty of historical buildings and stories.

Indeed there is a Tarleton Street in Liverpool's town centre, which is difficult to find. Having said that, Scotland Road is only a short bus ride away, maybe five minutes!

Hi there! Lovely to see you posting again.

You are in good company on this thread as I believe there are several natives of your very fair city posting.

I didn't realise Scotland Rd was that close to the city centre. I think Tarlton Street must be very different now from how it was in 1961 as I think the city centre housing was cleared to make way for the shopping centre? I also noticed Paradise Street which features in some books I read about Liverpool in the 1930s - when it was a working class area.

I had a fantastic time. It was a real tonic.

Take Care.

Julie

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie,
Glad you had such a great time! Sounds terrific!I often went to the Cavern when I was a young girl!
We are back in London now having had a really productive time in Rhyl.I went to see my friend in the print shop in Rhyl.She knew all the people in Kinmel Street and South Kinmel Street in the late 60"s early 70"s.The print shop is a few doors from Ingledene and so Mrs Jones and her family were close neighbours .My friend speaks very well of Mrs Jones who was a very good neighbour.Also Ivy Vincent,Mrs Davies and Margaret Walker.She says it was a very close knit community in those days and they all used to have a Saturday night get together at the club down the road near the cinema.So ofcourse she knew all about their involvement.Fascinating .
Norma

Hi Norma - the new Cavern is huge compared to that tiny wet cave that was the real club in the 60s! It must have been thrilling to hear bands such as Gerry & The Pacemakers and The Beatles in their early days!

We must have practically passed each other on the train tracks today as we left Liverpool by train and went down to Birmingham and then picked up another train across the Peterborough. It took over four hours in total and |I believe the Rhyl to Euston train follows a similar route ?

Julie

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Julie yes, quite similar but avoids Birmingham.Really good to know you had such a great time!
Norma

[Victor]

Welcome John, and Hi Norma,

I tested sunset times in Rhyl last august and everything tallied with what H said.

I can believe everything tallied with what Hanratty said, but what Larman and the other witnesses said doesn't - for example, Larman contends he met the strangely haired stranger before Hanratty claims he left Liverpool.

Judge Gorman was clearly attempting to discourage the jury from a guilty verdict.

I very much hope not, he's not there to usurp the jury.

lack of an alibi is not proof of guilt he said.

A lack of alibi merely shows the opportunity to commit the crime.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Victor John et al,
My interpretation of Hanratty"s responses regarding arrival time in Rhyl is that he was uncertain of the time the bus got in.He did not time it he said.He also expressed surprise that sunset was at 8.30 pm in Rhyl in August.So would a lot of people casting their mind back several months-that is why I believe Mr Larman said "about 7.30" and other were uncertain eg Mrs Walker simply said it was getting dark in South Kinmel St and the lights were on.In fact the only coach that left Liverpool would have arrived at approximately 8.15 although the Coast Road from Flint to Rhyl was and still is notorious for traffic congestion so the coach could have arrived later.Rhyl is quite light until about 9.30 pm August 22nd.I timed it last August and posted on here about it as I watched it get dark.However lighting up time is soon after sunset.
The judge appeared to be saying to them "you are uncertain".He apeared to also infer the jury did not have enough evidence to convict
I am posting some photos I took.These first are of sunset in Kinmel Street in early January.The couple were walking in front of me and I took the photos at the junction of Bodfor Street and Kinmel St.The little photo is a close up of the couple looking into an estate agants window.The woman"s hair is reddish in the sunset,but the scene is darkening as can be seen.
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Sorry about the large size this turned out to be.I followed the guidelines with this new computer but it didn"t quite work out!I have a few more that would help John to see the logistics re James Hanratty arriving in Rhyl by the only bus he could have arrived on from LIverpool at approx 8.15 pm.This is close to sunset for August 22nd and it does feel as though its "going dark" but in actual fact,despite the street lights going on around sunset,Rhyl stays relatively light ---between darkness and daylight----at this time of year until about 9.30.
Best,
norma

[Derrick]

A lack of alibi merely shows the opportunity to commit the crime.

Hi Vic

Judge Gorman made it very clear in this case as is accepted in every other case that a lack of an alibi is no indication of guilt.

An opportunity to commit any crime presented in a court of law will need to pass the test of "being beyond a reasonable doubt".

This must be proved by the prosecution.

I believe that Gorman did not think that the prosecution had done that but I would not go so far as Norma did when she states that Gorman bent over backwards to persuade the jury to acquit.

But I do find that Gorman was shocked at the jury's verdict as did most of the commentators on the case. Gorman may have felt quite sick when he had the black cap placed on his head.

Derrick

[Natalie Severn]

Hoping these pictures will be right size.....
1]Ingledene today

2]Windsor Hotel standing opposite Ingledene which can just be seen on far left.{Mr Larman said he was standing at corner of Bodfor St and Kinmel St and showed "the young man who resembled Hanratty" the Windsor Hotel which he pointed out was opposite Ingledene run by Mrs Jones.

3]The Picture House [now called The Apollo] at the end of Kinmel Street and at the base of the Bridge Hanratty said was also at the end of the [Kinmel ] Street.

4]Rhyl Railway Station, the Apollo or "Picture House" and railway bridge in the distance.

5] This picture is of the backs of the houses in both Kinmel St[furthest away] and South Kinmel Street nearest.It is taken from the car park in front of Rhyl Railway Station.The Bus depot is also now in front of the Railway Station but used to be just opposite---also in Kinmel Street.

The Ocean Beach Fairground was quite far West -out about 6-10 minutes walk along the beach ; Terry Evans himself lived in a council House , way towards the East as I understand--- whereas Kinmel Street is in the Centre of Rhyl.
Hope this is of help to John in particular who wondered about how feasible the itinerary Hanratty reported was.As can be seen,apart from the Fairground and the council house of Terry Evans,everything was weel within reach.

[Natalie Severn]

A few more pics of Rhyl:
1]Kinmel Street at Bodfor Intersection
2]Rhyl Beach
3]entrance to Rhyl Coach Station + Railway from Kinmel Street
4]Rhyl High Street showing DP[Dorothy Perkins] next to the Burtons men"s shop where Mr Trevor Dutton told police he had been asked if he wanted to buy a gold watch by a young man.
5]Burtons in Rhyl High Street taken last week[still in same building as in 1961].
5]

[Natalie Severn]

I have also been painting some pictures for an exhibition---they have not been mounted or the paper re-stretched yet and the South kinmel Street one ,painted today,is not quite finished because I couldn"t photograph sunset last week in Rhyl as it clouded over each day so it will have to wait until I am next there.

1] A young man who resembled Hanratty approached Mr Trevor Dutton in Rhyl High Street and tries to sell him a gold watch as he left Barclay"s Bank on August 23rd 1961.

2] A young man,resembling James Hanratty, came to Mrs Margaret Walker"s house at 12 South Kinmel St.It was after lighting up time on August 22nd 1961 and he was wanting B&B.She signals to her neighbours house,Mrs Ivy Vincent"s at no 23 opposite and suggests Ivy might be able to put him up.
Hanratty remembered she had a "big dog"---she had an alsation.

Both their statements were given to police at the very end of the trial.Mrs Walker was never called.Mr Dutton never heard anything more until 1968 when a meeting took place in Rhyl with Lord Longford and Paul Foot etc.

[Victor]

Judge Gorman made it very clear in this case as is accepted in every other case that a lack of an alibi is no indication of guilt.

Hi Derrick,

Yes I was agreeing with you, an alibi is a positive factor - it establishes innocence - but the lack of an alibi is not a negative factor, it just shows that Hanratty had the opportunity to commit the crime because he was not demonstrably elsewhere.

An opportunity to commit any crime presented in a court of law will need to pass the test of "being beyond a reasonable doubt".

This must be proved by the prosecution.

I think you've jumped forward a few steps - Hanratty had the opportunity to commit the crime because he had no believeable alibi and was not undoubtedly elsewhere. In other words the alibi had failed the "beyond reasonable doubt" test, which means Hanratty had the opportunity to commit the crime, not an opportunity which would be a specific circumstance that the prosecution would have to prove.

I think it's clear that Gorman believed that the Rhyl and Liverpool alibis had failed - otherwise why did he defend them - and he therefore made sure that the jury were clear that the failure of those alibis could not be seen as an indication of guilt of this specific crime. It does however show Hanratty to be a liar, just not a rapist nor a murderer.

But I do find that Gorman was shocked at the jury's verdict as did most of the commentators on the case. Gorman may have felt quite sick when he had the black cap placed on his head.

I can't see how that is relevent, he was either a believer in the deterent effect of capital punishment and acknowledged his responsibility for carrying it out, or he was against and every time he had to do it it made him feel sick.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Point of information:
Although I chose to depict Trevor Dutton and the young man trying to sell the gold watch, at the far end of Rhyl High Street, with the bridge and Picture House in the background,I understand that the exact spot was a little further down -"between Barclay"s Bank and Burtons-near the old Post Office".The old Post Office though ,has since been demolished.However that original and exact spot on Rhyl High street which Mr Dutton described is interesting of itself, because it is a place where people are still allowed to sell stuff- which can be seen in the photographs above,taken outside Burtons last week.

[jimarilyn]

Hi Ron
Beg pudding, you're right.

This edition must be the second one. Jimarylin would know for sure. He put 2 versions up on YouTube, the second lot (with better sound and vision) must be the first edition...got me confused.

That would mean that he is speaking after the first round of SGM tests in 1995. Makes sense as the Home Office refused to test the samples until SGM came online.

You're absolutely correct Derrick, the 13 segment version was the one I uploaded first. This was the updated 1995 Channel 4 documentary which I had transferred from a video tape onto DVD. The sound and picture quality leaves something to be desired on this particular video. I later managed to obtain a copy of the original 1992 documentary and uploaded it onto Youtube. As you say the sound and picture quality is much better on this 7 segment version.