A6 Rebooted

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  • ansonman
    Detective
    • Mar 2008
    • 220

    #2071
    I saw this most interesting link which is a Hansard extract concerning the failed attempt by Fenner Brockway MP to persuade the Secretary of State to launch an inquiry into the Hanratty case.



    It's a lengthy document but well worth a read. I'm sure it's appeared on this site before but I haven't previously read it. Woofinden refers to it on pages 335-338 ('97 hardback)

    Ansonman

    Comment

    • gallicrow
      Constable
      • Jul 2008
      • 96

      #2072
      Interesting that in the version of Alphon's confession read out by Brockway, Alphon suggests that he had picked out his victims at random rather than because he had been paid to frighten them.

      Comment

      • NickB
        Inspector
        • Sep 2009
        • 1204

        #2073
        On the first ID parade Blackall and Hirons selected people other than Hanratty. So the striking hair did not mean that anyone was bound to pick him out.

        Comment

        • moste
          Inspector
          • Aug 2013
          • 1344

          #2074
          http://pemmusing.wordpress.com/2012/...murder/Another decent site. Purely chronology, but good for quick referencing .Incidentally, recent thoughts on JHs accent. Though probably a different pitch maybe from his brothers, his accent would have been more or less the same as Michaels I would think.

          Comment

          • moste
            Inspector
            • Aug 2013
            • 1344

            #2075

            Comment

            • Sherlock Houses
              Sergeant
              • Apr 2013
              • 643

              #2076
              Originally posted by moste View Post
              '
              Yes, that's the Leeds composer Paul Magee' blog. It's certainly an interesting site and has been around for a few years now, with various updates.
              Paul submitted a few posts on these threads some years ago and like many other people is fascinated by this complex case.
              *************************************
              "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

              "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

              Comment

              • Sherlock Houses
                Sergeant
                • Apr 2013
                • 643

                #2077
                Originally posted by moste View Post
                Incidentally, recent thoughts on JHs accent. Though probably a different pitch maybe from his brothers, his accent would have been more or less the same as Michaels I would think.
                I can't comment on Hanratty's accent Moste except to point out that his father, James, said something to the effect that Alphon's voice was very similar to his son's.

                On a slightly different (and very important) note, I can say something [I have it on good authority] about Hanratty's complexion, which differed greatly from the gunman's pale complexion. Hanratty's [complexion] was ruddy and, like many a red or ginger-haired person, was fully freckled, especially at the height of the summer season in August.
                Last edited by Sherlock Houses; 12-09-2014, 05:24 PM.
                *************************************
                "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                Comment

                • moste
                  Inspector
                  • Aug 2013
                  • 1344

                  #2078
                  Originally posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
                  I can't comment on Hanratty's accent Moste except to point out that his father, James, said something to the effect that Alphon's voice was very similar to his son's.

                  On a slightly different (and very important) note, I can say something [I have it on good authority] about Hanratty's complexion, which differed greatly from the gunman's pale complexion. Hanratty's [complexion] was ruddy and, like many a red or ginger-haired person, was fully freckled, especially at the height of the summer season in August.
                  Very important? I would say a vital piece of identification information, if his complexion was as you say. I don't know if that point has been raised before on these threads, but you can't really tell from newspaper photo's etc. I for one certainly have missed that possibility, that he was covered in freckles.
                  I mean If VS had said, "I only caught a glimpse but he was covered in freckles." what a major narrowing down of possible suspects that would have been. As it was I don't believe any of his so called identifiers, mentioned it,

                  Comment

                  • Graham
                    Assistant Commissioner
                    • Feb 2008
                    • 3813

                    #2079
                    No colour photo, no newsreel footage (apart from appearing with a blanket over his head), no recording of his voice has come down to us, so how can you be so sure how Hanratty sounded and looked? I can't recall reading that his father said that Alphon sounded like his son. And without the benefit of a good-quality colour photo, I honestly don't know how it can be determined that he was ruddy-faced and freckled. No-one has ever mentioned this aspect of his appearance before, and perhaps you'd be kind enough to give further details of the 'good authority' on which you obtained this information. Of course, if this 'good authority' is a person who actually knew Hanratty and has or had a good memory of his appearance, then that would be different.

                    After his arrest and during psychological interviews, his accent and diction were examined, mainly because (according to Woffinden) Acott had referred to Hanratty having a 'speech impediment'. At any rate. the specialist who analysed Hanratty's diction said that his accent was typical of any Londoner from a 'working-class', low standard of education background. I can remember only the salient points of this assessment, as I still don't have my books back, but it's all in Woffinden.

                    Regarding Alphon, we have loads of photos of him, plus of course the (in)famous Paris interview which was filmed. Plus evidence from at least one person who knew him that he was quite well-spoken and articulate, and given to criticising others for poor pronunciation. Certainly, his accent in the filmed interview is (to my ears) southern Home Counties with a touch of London, but certainly not Cockney.

                    As a Midlander, I have to say that a strong Cockney accent can sometimes be rather difficult to understand, but I have no problem with Alphon's accent. He is very fluent in that interview, as he ate the BBC reporter for breakfast.......

                    Graham
                    We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                    Comment

                    • Spitfire
                      Sergeant
                      • Dec 2013
                      • 758

                      #2080
                      Originally posted by Sherlock Houses View Post

                      On a slightly different (and very important) note, I can say something [I have it on good authority] about Hanratty's complexion, which differed greatly from the gunman's pale complexion. Hanratty's [complexion] was ruddy and, like many a red or ginger-haired person, was fully freckled, especially at the height of the summer season in August.
                      Who or what is the "good authority"?

                      Why has this alleged discrepancy as to facial complexion not been brought up by Foot or Woffinden? Or has it? And if so, where and when?

                      Was the alleged discrepancy canvassed at the trial? If not, why not? Surely Mike Sherrard would have noticed!

                      Comment

                      • Sherlock Houses
                        Sergeant
                        • Apr 2013
                        • 643

                        #2081
                        Originally posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
                        I can't comment on Hanratty's accent Moste except to point out that his father, James, said something to the effect that Alphon's voice was very similar to his son's.
                        There is reference to this in the well known Hansard, House of Commons debate of August 2nd 1963.

                        Originally posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
                        On a slightly different (and very important) note, I can say something [I have it on good authority] about Hanratty's complexion, which differed greatly from the gunman's pale complexion. Hanratty's [complexion] was ruddy and, like many a red or ginger-haired person, was fully freckled, especially at the height of the summer season in August.
                        Perhaps I should have said very good authority. Someone who knew James Hanratty very, very well. I'll leave it at that as I'm not going to name drop. I feel sure some of you can guess.
                        Last edited by Sherlock Houses; 12-10-2014, 10:21 AM.
                        *************************************
                        "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                        "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                        Comment

                        • Spitfire
                          Sergeant
                          • Dec 2013
                          • 758

                          #2082
                          Originally posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
                          Perhaps I should have said very good authority. Someone who knew James Hanratty very, very well. I'll leave it at that as I'm not going to name drop. I feel sure some of you can guess.
                          My guess is Ernie Marples. Am I right?

                          Comment

                          • ansonman
                            Detective
                            • Mar 2008
                            • 220

                            #2083
                            Keeping it in the family

                            Originally posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
                            There is reference to this in the well known Hansard, House of Commons debate of August 2nd 1963.



                            Perhaps I should have said very good authority. Someone who knew James Hanratty very, very well. I'll leave it at that as I'm not going to name drop. I feel sure some of you can guess.
                            Oh! brother?

                            Ansonman

                            Comment

                            • Sherlock Houses
                              Sergeant
                              • Apr 2013
                              • 643

                              #2084
                              Hansard 02-08-1962..........

                              "Sixthly, the assailant had an East London accent; Mr. X is well spoken. However, no one who has heard the tape recordings would say that Mr. X is well spoken. He frequently lapses into a Cockney accent. Indeed, his voice answers the description given by Valerie Storie. Hanratty's father says that Mr. X's voice is very like that of his son."
                              *************************************
                              "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                              "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                              Comment

                              • Sherlock Houses
                                Sergeant
                                • Apr 2013
                                • 643

                                #2085
                                Originally posted by Spitfire View Post
                                My guess is Ernie Marples. Am I right?
                                Who does he play for ? You'd be closer if you said Agatha's friend Jane Marples.
                                *************************************
                                "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                                "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                                Comment

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