A6 Rebooted

[Graham]

Danny Green of course...the film is a masterpiece...possibly the best of all the Ealing comedies..but thereagain they are all SO good...it's hard to judge...

I could watch 'The Ladykillers' and 'The Lavender Hill Mob' all day and every day!
Alec Guinness was already established, of course, but 'The Ladykillers' made stars of Peter Sellers and Herbert Lom. Danny Green played bit parts in loads of films from the 1930's to the late 1960's, but One Round was the part he's remembered for. Ealing Studios kick-started many a movie and theatre career.

Graham

[Graham]

I've never been very comfortable with regard to the various claimed sightings of the Morris up and down the country. Not to impugn the honesty of those who claimed to have seen the car and as far as the London sightings are concerned to have seen and identified JH behind the wheel. It just doesn't seem very likely to me, but obviously can't be ruled out. However, I think that there is a very good chance that at least one the sightings, not necessarily the London ones, was perfectly genuine, and for whatever reason not followed up too hotly by the police.

I agree with Woffinden that the car was parked in Avondale Crescent not long before Allan Madwar spotted it and reported it to the police at around 6.45pm. The CCRC agreed. Maybe it was thought that parking the car in a busy street where plenty of other cars were parked would have a good chance of going un-noticed. Also Avondale Crescent was very close to a Tube station.

Again, if you put yourself in the A6 murderer's shoes, what would you do if you'd just shot two people, both of whom you were convinced were dead and therefore couldn't identify you? You are a good way from home and friends, with a gun and ammunition, driving a blood-stained car which if you had any intelligence at all you'd figure out that the police would very soon identify. Me, I think I'd have dumped it closer to the scene of the crime, got rid of the gun and ammo preferably into water, made my way to a railway or bus-station, and disappeared. Which, by the way, is what I think JH actually did, but he drove all the way back to London to do it. His actions seem strange to my way of thinking, but having said that to have brutalised and dispatched two perfectly innocent people for no apparent reason or motive must have produced a massive reaction in him, leading him to acting in an irrational manner. Speculation? Yep.

I can't totally discount Ed's suggestion that the Morris was parked in Avondale by someone else. However, if this was so, then JH's powers of persuasion must have been impressive, gun or no gun, to convince anyone to drive away a blood-covered car whose registration by then was known to the police who were already looking for it.

Graham

[OneRound]

(Just for) Graham - in view of your footer quote, I would geekily mention that according to Danny Green's imdb biography, he appeared in the 1937 film 'Silver Blaze' as Barton, Moriarty's Henchman. ;-)

[OneRound]

Back to the car.

I don't half find all the reported sightings confusing. I'm sure the jury would have done as well if they had been told of them. Just possibly that might have created more doubt in their minds and resulted in a 'not guilty' verdict.

An extra uncertainty for me is how much the car was cleaned up (bizarrely, some old finger prints remained but all current at the time forensic evidence was removed - right?!), where it was cleaned up and how long that took. Whist abandoning the car early on might have seemed sensible, the time to clean it up (and perhaps driving it some where to do that) might count against that.

Apologies but I don't have access to any books currently - can someone please remind me about Gregsten's recording of the mileage and what that appeared to show about the subsequent distance(s) travelled. Another uncertainty, if I recall correctly.

Thanks and best regards,

OneRound

[j.kettle1]

When posting a reply John just scroll down the page a little until you see "Additional Options"
Click on the tab "Manage Attachments".
A small window then opens which looks like the one below.
Click on one of the 5 Browse tabs to locate the particular file on your computer which you wish to upload.
Click on the Upload tab and your file will be attached with your post.
Just ensure that the file size is not larger than 293 kb.
Hope this helps.

Thank you for this.
I am busy for the rest of the day and night, but will definitely post this pic of the parked MM tomorrow for those that have not seen it or managed to follow the troublesome link.

Thanks

John

[Graham]

(Just for) Graham - in view of your footer quote, I would geekily mention that according to Danny Green's imdb biography, he appeared in the 1937 film 'Silver Blaze' as Barton, Moriarty's Henchman. ;-)

Hello again!

And I would even more geekily mention that in the original story 'The Adventure Of Silver Blaze' Professor Moriarty does not appear at all! Also, I don't recall that in any of the stories he ever had a henchman called Moriarty (but I stand to be corrected on this). 'Silver Blaze' in my humble opinion is one of the three best short stories in the entire Holmesian canon.

Graham

[NickB]

can someone please remind me about Gregsten's recording of the mileage and what that appeared to show about the subsequent distance(s) travelled.

The dashboard showed 232 miles had been covered since Gregsten made his last entry in the mileage log.

On 22/23 August the car travelled at least 168 miles:

57 miles before Dorney
62 miles from Dorney to Deadman’s Hill
49 miles from Deadman’s Hill to Ilford by the most direct route
----------
168 miles

The two big unknown factors are ...
- the distance covered before Gregsten logged the mileage; and
- the additional mileage by not taking the shortest (49 miles) route to Ilford

If Gregsten had logged the mileage at the outset, this would indicate the detour to Ilford was 64 miles (i.e. 232 less 168). Quite a significant detour, and of course this is the minimum it could be if the mileage was logged accurately.

[OneRound]

The dashboard showed 232 miles had been covered since Gregsten made his last entry in the mileage log.

On 22/23 August the car travelled at least 168 miles:

57 miles before Dorney
62 miles from Dorney to Deadman’s Hill
49 miles from Deadman’s Hill to Ilford by the most direct route
----------
168 miles

The two big unknown factors are ...
- the distance covered before Gregsten logged the mileage; and
- the additional mileage by not taking the shortest (49 miles) route to Ilford

If Gregsten had logged the mileage at the outset, this would indicate the detour to Ilford was 64 miles (i.e. 232 less 168). Quite a significant detour, and of course this is the minimum it could be if the mileage was logged accurately.

Thanks, Nick. That's helpful.

Of course it is possible that Gregsten logged the mileage incorrectly but I think it's reasonable to assume that he didn't. If someone went to the trouble of doing such a task, I would then anticipate them doing it in a thorough and careful manner.

So on the above basis, we possibly have up to 64 miles (but definitely no more) unaccounted for. That though would rule out some of the more far flung reported sightings, wouldn't it?

Best regards,

OneRound

[NickB]

Other way round. 64 miles is the minimum detour.

For example, if Gregston logged the mileage after 5 miles it would be 69 miles.

[OneRound]

Aaaagh! Sorry, Nick. Need to get my head round this. More haste, less speed.

Best regards,

OneRound

[Graham]

Other way round. 64 miles is the minimum detour.

For example, if Gregston logged the mileage after 5 miles it would be 69 miles.

Which could more than account for the sighting in Bedford at about 5.25 am, the one sighting I feel could well be genuine, even though Bedford is north of Deadman's Hill. (During the crime, the Morris was, according to Valerie Storey, facing south in the lay-by, so it would have required a deliberate act to turn it around). Woffinden questions that if this indeed was the murder car, then it must have taken about 2 hours to travel from Deadman's Hill to Bedford; he suggests it must have been driven via a 'circuitous route'. I'd suggest that much of this time, if the Bedford sighting was indeed the murder car, as I believe it was, may well have been taken up by JH pulling in somewhere secluded and giving the Morris a thorough good clean-up before it was broad daylight.

JH in fact knew Bedford, where he had a relative, and drove there with Gladys Deacon in his Alpine after the crime. In earlier years he recuperated with his aunt in Bedford after his craniotomy, and Woffinden also says that he and his brother Michael went there for holidays when they were young.

Graham

[NickB]

The aunt from Bedford was buried with him, so both bodies had to be exhumed.

One thing I hadn’t picked up on before was that, according to the BBC’s exhumation report, Hanratty's mother and brother had already given DNA samples which showed a match with the underwear and handkerchief.

[Graham]

One thing I hadn’t picked up on before was that, according to the BBC’s exhumation report, Hanratty's mother and brother had already given DNA samples which showed a match with the underwear and handkerchief.

Yes indeed, Nick. The family had been pressing hard for DNA testing in hope of JH being exonerated, but when the initial testing showed a match with the underwear and the hankie, they were less keen and wished for no further DNA analyses. I believe it was the Court Of Appeal who ordered the exhumation and further, more detailed, DNA testing, which ever since has been the source of conflict and debate.

Graham

[NickB]

I see the results from the mother and brother tests were in June 1999.

Just after Bob Woffinden, in his Guardian obituary of Jeremy Fox on 31st May 1999, concluded hopefully:
“It is a great sadness that he will not be here for the final denouement in the Hanratty case.”

http://www.theguardian.com/news/1999/may/31/guardianobituaries4

[OneRound]

Yes indeed, Nick. The family had been pressing hard for DNA testing in hope of JH being exonerated, but when the initial testing showed a match with the underwear and the hankie, they were less keen and wished for no further DNA analyses. I believe it was the Court Of Appeal who ordered the exhumation and further, more detailed, DNA testing, which ever since has been the source of conflict and debate.

Graham

Exactly, and this relates to another factor as to why I'm as sure as I can be that James Hanratty made no admission at trial that the hankie was his. Michael Hanratty tried to put the DNA results on both the underwear and the hankie down to contamination. If brother Jim had stated at trial that it was his hankie, there would have been no reason for Michael to be surprised by the findings on that exhibit and cry foul.

Best regards,

OneRound