A6 Rebooted

[Cogidubnus]

Ed, I'm not sure I understand your question concerning the Morris Minor in Avondale Crescent, unless I'm missing something?

I'm not sure if it's what Ed was thinking about, but it's clearly been reversed into that position, and possibly not of necessity...something which clashes with the earlier apparent unfamiliarity with gears...

All the best

Dave

[Graham]

No worse than the parking "skills" , ha ha, of the young mums who regularly block my drive whilst taking their precious brats all of two hundred yards to the local primary school which is a blot on the landscape of where I live and....

....where was I?....

.....Oh yes! Morris Minor, Avondale Crescent. It looks OK to me, whether it was reversed or not (and I'd say that it was).

Is Ed implying that whoever drove off from Deadman's Hill would be incapable of reversing the car into a parking space?

Graham

[Ed James]

Hi Graham

I don't classify myself as a 'JH supporter' but as someone trying, not just to go over old ground, but probe for further insights wherever that takes things.

Hi Dave

Your observation is most interesting.

I am wondering if there is more that can be drawn from the photograph and which would be consistent with at least some of the evidence. Others views are important to me because I don't want to stand alone accused of pure speculation.

I should add that, for everyone's benefit, my thinking doesn't necessarily absolve Hanratty.

regards

Ed

[OneRound]

Ed - subject of course to the laws of libel, I would encourage you not to be worried about speculation. After all this time, we will never know all the details of ''the A6 murder''. However, even though it may now be impossible for it to be verified, speculation may provide a clearer glimpse of at least one of the many blurred parts that make up this enigmatic case.

I think the important aspect is to stress where known facts end and speculation begins. That's said for emphasis and certainly not a dig at you, Ed. I very much like your probing and questioning approach.

It's probably only right to state my own view at this point. I am in the vexed position of believing that Hanratty did murder Michael Gregsten although have serious concerns that his guilt was proved fairly and beyond reasonable doubt. I further wonder (speculate) if Alphon also had a minor role in the crime although that belongs in another post.

Best regards,

OneRound

[Graham]

Ed - subject of course to the laws of libel, I would encourage you not to be worried about speculation. After all this time, we will never know all the details of ''the A6 murder''. However, even though it may now be impossible for it to be verified, speculation may provide a clearer glimpse of at least one of the many blurred parts that make up this enigmatic case.

I think the important aspect is to stress where known facts end and speculation begins. That's said for emphasis and certainly not a dig at you, Ed. I very much like your probing and questioning approach.

It's probably only right to state my own view at this point. I am in the vexed position of believing that Hanratty did murder Michael Gregsten although have serious concerns that his guilt was proved fairly and beyond reasonable doubt. I further wonder (speculate) if Alphon also had a minor role in the crime although that belongs in another post.

Best regards,

OneRound

Hi One Round,

a very pertinent post, if I may say so. When I first started posting on the A6 threads I was very much against any kind of 'speculation' in this case, hence my footer quote from Sherlock Holmes. I won't go into details for fear of offending anyone. However, as it now seems that there will not be another appeal, and as it now also seems that little further information about JH or the case itself will be forthcoming, I agree with you that some degree of sensible speculation is appropriate. However, this doesn't mean to imply that we should be looking for the proverbial 'green mare's nests' here.

It's also struck me that - and forgive me if this sounds slightly whacky - that we probably know fewer hard crucial facts about the A6 than we do about Jack The Ripper! Michael Sherrard commented, quite correctly, that this case is 'dripping with coincidence', which it is; it is also slightly dry on hard facts.

Like you, I am 99.9% certain (always leave a bit of room for manoever!) that JH murdered Michael Gregsten and raped and shot Valerie Storie, and like you I do not feel that the case against him was proven at his trial. And, it has to be said from those who were in court at the time, neither did Justice Gorman. I'm far from being the only observer who feels that, had the A6 happened in Scotland, the verdict would very likely have been 'not proven'.

Graham

PS: I've been meaning to ask you for ages if you borrowed your pen-name from the character in the wonderful Ealing Comedy "The Ladykillers"?

[j.kettle1]

With respect to the parking of the MM in Avondale crescent.
I hope that the photo in the link that I've (hopefully) uploaded shows that there is ample room for the car to have been driven directly into its final position, so it needn't have necessarily have been reversed. BTW I hope that it isn't against forum rules.
http://murderpedia.org/male.H/h/hanratty-james.htm

I can so no evidence of the three stripes on the rear bumper, nor can I see a torn green sticker.
I'd be interested to hear what others think.

Thanks

John

[j.kettle1]

I've just tried the link and it doesn't work although the site is still available if you want to try it.
Alternatively I have a pic on my laptop if someone can tell me how to upload it.

Thanks

John

[Graham]

With respect to the parking of the MM in Avondale crescent.
I hope that the photo in the link that I've (hopefully) uploaded shows that there is ample room for the car to have been driven directly into its final position, so it needn't have necessarily have been reversed. BTW I hope that it isn't against forum rules.
http://murderpedia.org/male.H/h/hanratty-james.htm

I can so no evidence of the three stripes on the rear bumper, nor can I see a torn green sticker.
I'd be interested to hear what others think.

Thanks

John

Hi John,

the link worked once only for me! I bookmarked it, but it still doesn't work.

The three fluorescent stripes are plainly visible - a short one at each end of the rear bumper, and a longer one in the centre. These stripes were all the go in 1961 - Halford's sold reels of sticky-back fluorescent tape in green or red which some folk plastered all over their cars. I didn't look for the green sticker and now I can't get back to the website!

We don't know what other cars were parked, and how, at the time the Morris was left in Avondale Crescent. Maybe JH did have to reverse it in.

Graham

[OneRound]

Hi One Round,

a very pertinent post, if I may say so. When I first started posting on the A6 threads I was very much against any kind of 'speculation' in this case, hence my footer quote from Sherlock Holmes. I won't go into details for fear of offending anyone. However, as it now seems that there will not be another appeal, and as it now also seems that little further information about JH or the case itself will be forthcoming, I agree with you that some degree of sensible speculation is appropriate. However, this doesn't mean to imply that we should be looking for the proverbial 'green mare's nests' here.

It's also struck me that - and forgive me if this sounds slightly whacky - that we probably know fewer hard crucial facts about the A6 than we do about Jack The Ripper! Michael Sherrard commented, quite correctly, that this case is 'dripping with coincidence', which it is; it is also slightly dry on hard facts.

Like you, I am 99.9% certain (always leave a bit of room for manoever!) that JH murdered Michael Gregsten and raped and shot Valerie Storie, and like you I do not feel that the case against him was proven at his trial. And, it has to be said from those who were in court at the time, neither did Justice Gorman. I'm far from being the only observer who feels that, had the A6 happened in Scotland, the verdict would very likely have been 'not proven'.

Graham

PS: I've been meaning to ask you for ages if you borrowed your pen-name from the character in the wonderful Ealing Comedy "The Ladykillers"?

Too kind, Graham. Too kind.

You are absolutely right that there's a relative absence of hard facts surrounding this case. I think there are two main reasons for that.

Firstly, Hanratty's execution, with the absence of an explanation of his "own starring role" (as posted by Victor which says so much for me), meant the primary source of further information was closed for all time.

Secondly, Acott's top priority was not to ascertain all details but to find the murderer and secure his conviction. Acott generally gets given a hard time on this board, including from me. However, I feel there's at least one occasion in which he's harshly treated. That relates to his "gas meter" comment. It's often been suggested over the years that Acott was suggesting here some sort of inside job. I find that utterly bizarre, particularly as Acott was sending a journalist off with a flea in his ear at the time and refusing to comment further. Far more likely in my opinion that Acott was stating his strongly held view that the actual murderer was convicted and that spotting him was as straightforward as finding a gas meter robber. I obviously can't prove that. Speculation on my part although hopefully not unreasonable speculation.

You could be right that a verdict of "not proven" could have been delivered had the trial been held in Scotland. Where the trial was actually held could perhaps raise other issues. Sherrard was very unhapppy that the trial was switched late on from the Old Bailey (think that's right) to Bedford. If a further appeal were ever to be mounted and held outside the UK, then I think that's something a European Appeal Court could choose to probe - in particular, whether the trial venue created undue unfairness. Admittedly, that's unlikely to happen and highly speculative but I put it in the possible mix.

Finally, you're pretty much on the money with your PS about my pen-name. It's largely derived from my favourite character in that masterpiece of a film although also influenced by the Court of Appeal's comments in 2002 concerning the need to see things "in the round".

Best regards,

OneRound

[Sherlock Houses]

I've just tried the link and it doesn't work although the site is still available if you want to try it.
Alternatively I have a pic on my laptop if someone can tell me how to upload it.

Thanks

John

When posting a reply John just scroll down the page a little until you see "Additional Options"
Click on the tab "Manage Attachments".
A small window then opens which looks like the one below.
Click on one of the 5 Browse tabs to locate the particular file on your computer which you wish to upload.
Click on the Upload tab and your file will be attached with your post.
Just ensure that the file size is not larger than 293 kb.
Hope this helps.

[moste]

One round ,you mean Danny Green ?(Mr.Lawson) or Alec Guiness,{Prof. Marcus} in the lady killers?

[Cogidubnus]

Danny Green of course...the film is a masterpiece...possibly the best of all the Ealing comedies..but thereagain they are all SO good...it's hard to judge...

[moste]

Has anyone every given any consideration to there being a connection between "The Profumo affair. and the "James Hanratty affair"? I think on another thread John said Limehouse hinted at it but nothing concrete?
Conspiracies do exist, the difficulty is trying to sift through the known facts comparing them with( so far) inexplicable coincidences and coming up with a plausible argument , that may lay to rest the "MAKES NO SENSE" element of such a lot of the A6 enigma.
I've read Foots ,Woffindens Buddles,Rob Harrimans books, Horizons documentary. Deadmans hill documentary Hanratty Hansard

HC Deb 02 August 1963 vol 682 cc795-832

And much of the casebook forums, but as interesting and intriguing as it all is, unless Valerie storrie leaves a deathbed letter, or the government release the (I suspect extremely damning)letters etc., into the public domain, we'll just continue to go round and round in circles.

[moste]

Ahh yes Smokey Copenhagen tunnel, I can still smell the smoke now. Don't make them like that any more!

[Ed James]

Let me return to observations on the photo of the MM in Avondale Crescent.

I had been wrestling with the contradictory evidence on the sightings of the MM at the end of its journey. Historically, no one disputed that Skillett and co had seen the MM (Foot 'It was plainly the murder car').But then the undisclosed statements of Doreen Milne and Margaret Thompson with their own reinforcing factors suggested the car was not left until later on 23 August.

The police understandably rejected the undisclosed statements, probably on the grounds that the 'hot' car would have been dumped early, the journey time from Deadman's Hill was about right, the reported erratic driving fitted expectations and Blackhall identified the car by reference to the red strips on the bumper etc (but not sure whether he reported the strips before shown the car). Hogan later , I think, said the car turned into Avondale Crescent.

Additionally, was a delayed dumping credible?

Much later looking at the photo of the MM, I was struck that the car was parked not perfectly but more neatly than would be expected of the murderer ( and I think reverse was probably needed), having regard to his driving skills and mental state. Could it have been a different driver who parked it? So what if against the conventional view, the car was moved later on 23 August, wouldn't the bent number plate, whether a product of collision damage and/or deliberate manipulation, serve to help obscure easy identification.

All highly risky but not as risky as leaving the car where it was. Any such later journey would clearly have had to have been short even with the rear number plate hidden by a closely following accompanying car,which would carry away the driver.

Speculation yes but based upon evidence. I offer it as a possible explanation.

regards

Ed