A6 Rebooted

[Derrick]

...Hang on a bit - some of us do believe that JH was the A6 Killer, so your sentence should read We all know that there is no real evidence of HOW JH got the gun Although I for one certainly wouldn't rule out Mr France...

Why would I post what you have emboldened?

Whether one believes Hanratty was or wasn't the A6 killer, it is still a fact that there is no evidence whatsoever that Hanratty had obtained a gun.

It is all very well saying it might have been from Tom, Dick or Harry. But the fact of the matter is is that there is no evidence of Hanratty ever obtaining a gun from anyone at all.

[Derrick]

...Does anyone know what this was all about? Presumably the evidence was deemed inadmissible.

Hi Nick

Perhaps it was about Mrs Anderson's fantasy of having had a pair of black nylon gloves stolen.

Del

[j.kettle1]

Hi Graham.

What I feel happened is that JH wanted a gun, and Dixie France supplied it. France was reputed to keep a fearsome array of weaponry under the counter of The Harmony Cafe in Archer Street, Soho, which he, er, managed. A good gun would very likely have not been beyond his ability to supply - and in those days, believe it or not, guns were much easier to obtain than they are today, courtesy of stacks of them being surplus after this country's several recent wars.

But didn't Mick Hanratty say that France told him not to worry, as his brother had nothing to do with it?

Thanks

John

[Spitfire]

Hi Graham.


But didn't Mick Hanratty say that France told him not to worry, as his brother had nothing to do with it?

Thanks

John

France was hardly likely to say, "Your brother's as guilty as sin, I should know because I supplied him the gun." if indeed that had been the case.

[Graham]

Why would I post what you have emboldened?

Whether one believes Hanratty was or wasn't the A6 killer, it is still a fact that there is no evidence whatsoever that Hanratty had obtained a gun.

It is all very well saying it might have been from Tom, Dick or Harry. But the fact of the matter is is that there is no evidence of Hanratty ever obtaining a gun from anyone at all.

I happen to believe that James Hanratty shot Michael Gregsten and Valerie Storie. He therefore had, perforce, a gun. Your statement is baseless. Do we have any proof that Hanratty obtained the pair of shoes he wore on the night of the murder? Of course not. Do you think he asked for a receipt for the gun and kept it in his wallet?

I repeat, We have no proof regarding from whom Hanratty obtained the gun, but obtain the gun he most certainly did.

[NickB]

Perhaps it was about Mrs Anderson's fantasy of having had a pair of black nylon gloves stolen.

Seems likely, as she was next up.

She got a mention of gloves in anyway when talking about his robberies:
“He said they couldn’t possibly detect him because he used gloves on these occasions and sometimes he used a nylon stocking.”

[j.kettle1]

France was hardly likely to say, "Your brother's as guilty as sin, I should know because I supplied him the gun." if indeed that had been the case.

So why didn't France deny all knowledge to Mick Hanratty?
He didn't have to say anything at all.

Thanks

John

[Graham]

According to Woffinden, James Hanratty Snr and Michael Hanratty were driven to the Rehearsal Club in Archer Street - the same street in which The Harmony Cafe, where Dixie was 'manager', was located - to see if they could speak to Dixie France. Michael went into the cafe and spoke to Anne Pryce, who was a Jamaican girl and a friend of JH. She said that she expected Dixie at any minute, and indeed he called in and according to Michael appeared to be highly nervous. Michael mentioned 'the A6 business' to Dixie, who then told him not to worry, that Jimmy had nothing to do with it. He denied that he knew where Jimmy was, and scarpered as fast as his feet would carry him.

As Spitfire says, Dixie was hardly likely to tell Michael Hanratty that he had supplied JH with the gun with which the A6 crime was committed. Because he believed his brother to be innocent, it's also hardly likely that Michael Hanratty would disbelieve Dixie France. Who, in my opinion, had rather a lot on his mind just then.

Not that it really matters, but long ago I recall reading something by the Ronnie Scott Band's tenor sax-player Pete King. The Band was formed following meetings and discussions at The Harmony Cafe, and Pete King made a reference to Dixie France in this reminiscence. Unfortunately, I can't find it.

Graham

[NickB]

James Hanratty Snr and Michael Hanratty were driven to the Rehearsal Club

That was the same day that the father took a birthday card received from his son to Scotland Yard.

Hanratty sent his postcards from Ireland on 7-Sept-61 shortly after his parents had been told on 27-Aug-61 their son was wanted for burglaries. I contend they reported receipt of their two postcards to the police – like the birthday card – and this is how it was determined that Ryan was ‘possibly’ Hanratty. This makes much more sense than France providing the tip off.

[Graham]

This is one of the most perplexing questions in an extremely perplexing case - how did the police make the Ryan-to-Hanratty link?

I've just had a re-read of Woffinden, who to be honest seems to be as perplexed as I am! He quotes Acott, who over 10 years afterwards said that the police made the connection via Gerrard Leonard, the man in Ireland who wrote the cards for JH. Woffinden rubbishes this, because when the cards were written on 25 September there was no way Leonard could know that the police were after a man called Ryan, because they didn't know themselves on that day, not until after they had interviewed Nudds.

There is then the visit of France to Scotland Yard with one of the 'Irish' postcards, but I've never been able to find anything on what was said during this visit, and in fairness to Woffinden it seems that he is not completely sure that France actually went to the Yard.

Acott and Oxford went to see JH's parents on 26 September, but only to tell them that their son was wanted for car-thefts because they had no concrete evidence to link JH with the A6 crime. But it seems that they most definitely had concrete evidence, information, whatever, to know that Ryan was in fact James Hanratty. 3 days after this visit Acott and Oxford flew to Dublin, pursued or so it seems by a mob of journalists. Then on 3 October James Hanratty Snr went to Scotland Yard with a birthday card with a London postmark sent to him by JH, and said publicly that Acott should stop fooling around in Ireland and return to London. This seems to me that JH Snr had a definite inkling that his son was being sought regarding the A6 murder, which Woffinden says was strengthened by the first reporter turning up at the house.

Leonard Miller is slightly hazy about this phase of the A6 crime and investigation, and I can understand that. It seems to me that Acott not only withheld information, but played somewhat fast and loose with whatever information he'd received from France and JH Snr. That the Ryan-Hanratty link was made cannot be denied, but even so, after re-reading Woffinden and Miller earlier today, I'm still not really any the wiser.

Graham

[NickB]

There is then the visit of France to Scotland Yard with one of the 'Irish' postcards

I believe the Sunday Times suggested to Charlotte France that he did this and she said he might have done, but for the reasons given I don’t think he did.

After Acott & Oxford visited 72 Wood Lane on the morning of 26 September they must have known that Hanratty was the person who had signed into the Vienna as Ryan, as they had already heard from Leonard the previous day (Appeal, section 38). The tip off pointing them in the direction of Ireland must have been earlier.

[Victor]

Whether one believes Hanratty was or wasn't the A6 killer, it is still a fact that there is no evidence whatsoever that Hanratty had obtained a gun.

Hi Del,

Your fact is wrong. The DNA evidence from the handkerchief wrapped round the gun is evidence that Hanratty "had obtained a gun". Add in JH admitting the hanky was his, etc.

I will grant there are explanations and reasons to counter this piece of evidence, eg., Mrs France had access to Hanratty's soiled clothing possibly including handkerchiefs.

I think you intended to say that 'there is no evidence of JH obtaining a gun' for which I would counter with the Fisher and Slack evidence that was not presented in court.

KR,
Vic.

[Derrick]

...After Acott & Oxford visited 72 Wood Lane on the morning of 26 September they must have known that Hanratty was the person who had signed into the Vienna as Ryan, as they had already heard from Leonard the previous day (Appeal, section 38). The tip off pointing them in the direction of Ireland must have been earlier.

This is another blatant error by the judges. Leonard first contacted Acott on 5th October, the day that Acott left Ireland. Besides, Leonard couldn't have known that the police were looking for a man called Ryan prior to Acott leaving for Ireland on the 29th September.

To all intents and purposes only 3 parties knew that Hanratty had been in Ireland in early September. Those that had received postcards written out by Leonard.

The first was his family. On Fred Dineage's recent treatment of the case, Michael Hanratty told him about Acott's visit and that Acott had given them some **** and bull story about Jimmy running stolen cars to Ireland. So that was the first time that they knew that the police had gotten wind of Hanratty's Ireland trip.

The second was Louise Anderson. At this time there was absolutely no reason for her to go to Scotland Yard.

So that leaves us with the alledged police informer Charles "Dixie" France.

Del.

[NickB]

I agree that we can rule out Louise Anderson because the police put out a public appeal for her (as per Daily Mirror 9-Oct-61 interview in post 3387 on original thread).

But if it was France, I don’t understand why he would tell the police ‘J Ryan’ was Hanratty but not tell them that he’d stayed at the Vienna and already returned from Ireland. He would know these things, Hanratty’s parents wouldn’t.

[Derrick]

...But if it was France, I don’t understand why he would tell the police ‘J Ryan’ was Hanratty but not tell them that he’d stayed at the Vienna and already returned from Ireland. He would know these things, Hanratty’s parents wouldn’t.

Hi Nick

Do you know, for sure, that France didn't tell the police about the Vienna Hotel? I have no reference that he did or didn't.

France said that he last saw Hanratty a couple of days after he returned from Ireland and showed him his new Sunbeam car. France would have had no idea where Hanratty was in the month before his arrest. In my view, for all France knew, Hanratty could have gone back to Ireland at any time.

On the night of the 6th October, the police were at the France's house to try to trace any phone calls from Hanratty.

Cheers
Del