A6 Rebooted

[Graham]

I doubt this because he would probably have noticed 2 of 6 cartridge cases missing when he reloaded.

This is my theory:

I think he tested the gun himself and collected the used cartridges in, say, a handkerchief each time he reloaded. Then in the Vienna he spread out the hanky on the chair and emptied the most recent cartridges from the gun on to it. In the dark alcove he did not notice two of them fall down the side because there would be a whole pile of cartridges on the hanky, which he then wrapped up for future disposal before reloading the gun.

Sorry, didn't make myself clear. I was implying that when JH received the gun it contained six spent cases, and he accidentally dropped two of these down the back of the chair while re-loading. Whether or not he tested the gun himself, I don't know, but I rather suspect that he didn't.

Re: Alphon and his clothes, as he had a pair of kex in a pawn-broker's, maybe he had other clothes in other brokers, and may well have been ashamed that he had to do this to raise some money; hence his reluctance to tell Acott. Just a thought.

Graham

[NickB]

I was implying that when JH received the gun it contained six spent cases, and he accidentally dropped two of these down the back of the chair while re-loading.

I understand that, but don’t you think when he picked up the four he would think: “Where are the other two?”

I suppose it is possible that when he opened the gun some cartridge cases fell out unexpectedly and he didn’t know how many had been in there.

[Spitfire]

I understand that, but don’t you think when he picked up the four he would think: “Where are the other two?”

I suppose it is possible that when he opened the gun some cartridge cases fell out unexpectedly and he didn’t know how many had been in there.

As all cartridge cases, spent or unspent, in the gun are ejected when the gun is broken, it is possible that the gun had four unspent cartridges and two spent ones.

Hanratty breaks the gun, all cartridges are ejected and go every which way onto the floor. Hanratty then has to scramble around looking for them and picking them off the floor. As he picks them up, he puts the unspent ones back in the gun, and the spent ones on the chair to be disposed of later. Due to his carelessness and lack of attention to detail, he forgets about them as puts two new cartridges into the gun.

I have wondered about the significance of there being two cartridge cases being found. If we assume that Hanratty and his gun supplier went out together so that the former could learn the ropes, then they would want to do so in a way that did not attract attention to themselves. In my view they would select a rural area where the sound of a shotgun was not uncommon, the way of replicating the sound of a double barrelled shotgun is to fire just two shots in succession.

My theory is that Hanratty fired six rounds in three bursts of two, he then broke the gun and the cartridges were ejected and disposed of at the scene by kicking them into the undergrowth or burying them, or whatever. Hanratty was then instructed how to reload the gun with six new rounds and he then fired two more shots to reassure himself that he had done the reloading correctly. Hanratty is then left in possession of a gun with four live rounds and two spent cartridges for him to reload at the Vienna later in the day.

[j.kettle1]

Murder weapon.

Whilst on the subject of the gun.
If Hanratty himself placed the gun on the bus then it's obvious that he did it.
If someone other than Hanratty placed it on the bus then how did they get it so quickly?
Communications were not so simple back then.
Who had such an issue with Hanratty that they would risk being caught with the hottest property in town and a potential date with the hangman?
Obviously Charles France had a reason because of Carole/Hanratty, but would he take that enormous risk?
Is there anyone else in the frame so to speak?
Thanks

John

[Spitfire]

Who had such an issue with Hanratty that they would risk being caught with the hottest property in town and a potential date with the hangman?
Obviously Charles France had a reason because of Carole/Hanratty, but would he take that enormous risk?

The decision to frame Hanratty must have been taken very early on in the proceedings. No murder had been planned when the gunman got into Gregsten's car, so the decision must have been taken sometime after the murder and before the gun was left on the bus. If the gunman had been driving around the highways and byways of Matlock in the early hours of the 23 August 1961, then there was even less time to formulate the frame-up plan.

If an attempt to frame Hanratty had been made on 23/24 August by the real gunman or someone closely connected to him, then it would follow that the discovery of the cartridge cases in the Vienna on 11 September was a continuation of that frame-up and not part of an attempt to frame Alphon, would it not?

No only was there great risk in carrying the gun onto public transport, the benefit of framing Hanratty, whatever that might be, would be set at nought if Hanratty anything like a half-decent alibi.

[j.kettle1]

Hi Spitfire.

No murder had been planned when the gunman got into Gregsten's car

You may be correct, however I don't think there is any definitive evidence for this.

If the gunman had been driving around the highways and byways of Matlock in the early hours of the 23 August 1961, then there was even less time to formulate the frame-up plan.

This would mean that the car couldn't have been in Avondale Crescent at around 7am.
Wouldn't this mean that there was more time to concoct a frame up plan?

If an attempt to frame Hanratty had been made on 23/24 August by the real gunman or someone closely connected to him, then it would follow that the discovery of the cartridge cases in the Vienna on 11 September was a continuation of that frame-up and not part of an attempt to frame Alphon, would it not?

Was there an attempt to frame Alphon?
He came to the fore due to his inexplicable behaviour at the Alexandra Court , and because he had links to the Vienna.
Unless you are referring to the statements of Nudds and Snell.

Thanks

John

[Graham]

Hi John,

You may be correct, however I don't think there is any definitive evidence for this.

And there certainly isn't any evidence to suggest otherwise. JH came across the car purely fortuitously (and tragically for MG and JS).

This would mean that the car couldn't have been in Avondale Crescent at around 7am.
Wouldn't this mean that there was more time to concoct a frame up plan?

The evidence that the car was parked in Avondale in the early morning is very thin. I agree here with Woffinden who felt that it had been parked there only a short time before it was spotted.

Was there an attempt to frame Alphon?
He came to the fore due to his inexplicable behaviour at the Alexandra Court , and because he had links to the Vienna.
Unless you are referring to the statements of Nudds and Snell.

Alphon was at The Vienna on the same night at Ryan/Hanratty purely coincidentally. He eventually felt able to make a few quid out of the whole thing, aided and abetted by his pal M. Jean Justice, S**t-Stirrer To The Aristocracy. Why should anyone wish to frame him for the A6 job? (By the way, he had a link to The Vienna, having stayed there just the once).

What I feel happened is that JH wanted a gun, and Dixie France supplied it. France was reputed to keep a fearsome array of weaponry under the counter of The Harmony Cafe in Archer Street, Soho, which he, er, managed. A good gun would very likely have not been beyond his ability to supply - and in those days, believe it or not, guns were much easier to obtain than they are today, courtesy of stacks of them being surplus after this country's several recent wars.

So JH got his gun, and swaggered off into the night to make his fortune.

When he returned in a big panic to London, he hot-footed it to Dixie's flat and begged him to take the gun back and lose it. (I did read somewhere, might have been in Woffinden, that France stated that JH had told him that he, JH, had 'done something that scared'. Also, Mrs France told JH to his face that one of the Identikit pictures resembled him!)

Faced with a long time in chokey if charged and found guilty as accessory to murder, France thought, "Sod this!" and put the gun + ammo on the 36A bus precisely where JH had told him. And wrapped in one of JH's hankies (Mrs France did his laundry for him from time to time) which JH himself identified in court as his. (How? Was it monogrammed?). That it was definitely his was much later proved by DNA.

I have absolutely no proof whatsoever regarding the above, but as I have never accepted that there was a conspiracy or even an attempted frame-up, I reckon this theory is as good as anyone's, never mind my footer.

Graham

[Spitfire]

Was there an attempt to frame Alphon?

The poster known as Limehouse seems to think so.

I do not think the cartridges were 'planted' to implicate Hanratty but Alphon. Shorty, I will construct and post a timeline to illustrate my line of thinking.

[Spitfire]

I have absolutely no proof whatsoever regarding the above, but as I have never accepted that there was a conspiracy or even an attempted frame-up, I reckon this theory is as good as anyone's, never mind my footer.

Graham

Agreed, a theory that is as good or as bad as any other.

My own view is that if Dixie had supplied the gun, and JH returned it to him after the murder for its disposal, then Dixie would have sought a better and more permanent hiding place than under the back seat of a bus. It would not be in Dixie's interest for the gun to be discovered.

No, the whole thing smacks of Hanratty's incompetence at virtually everything he turned his hand to. A botched hold-up was followed by the accidental slaying of Michael Gregsten, followed by the botched attempted execution of Valerie Storie, followed by a reckless drive into London. The disposal of the revolver in such an easily discoverable way is entirely in keeping with JH's modus operandi.

[NickB]

It would not be in Dixie's interest for the gun to be discovered.

But the ‘traditional’ theory is that it was - he informed the police that Ryan was Hanratty and told them he hid stuff under the back seat of buses.

I do not believe this.

Oxford testified: "On the 25th September we had in fact identified the man Ryan as possibly being Hanratty." I believe it was only ‘possibly’ because they knew that Hanratty used the name Ryan but did not yet have a linkage to the Vienna (that came the following day when they went to 72 Wood Lane). If France had been the informer he would have told them Ryan had stayed at the Vienna.

Then on 29th September Acott & Oxford went to Ireland in hot pursuit of Hanratty. If France had been the informer he would have told them Hanratty was back in the UK.

[Limehouse]

But the ‘traditional’ theory is that it was - he informed the police that Ryan was Hanratty and told them he hid stuff under the back seat of buses.

I do not believe this.

Oxford testified: "On the 25th September we had in fact identified the man Ryan as possibly being Hanratty." I believe it was only ‘possibly’ because they knew that Hanratty used the name Ryan but did not yet have a linkage to the Vienna (that came the following day when they went to 72 Wood Lane). If France had been the informer he would have told them Ryan had stayed at the Vienna.

Then on 29th September Acott & Oxford went to Ireland in hot pursuit of Hanratty. If France had been the informer he would have told them Hanratty was back in the UK.

This is interesting, because until 24 September, Alphon was named publically as a suspect and eliminated because VS did not pick him out in the line-up.

The police returned to the Vienna Hotel on 25 Spetember, whereupon Nudds made yet another statement and, subsequent to this, the police called on Hanratty's parents.

Alphon was identified as being suspicious due to his behaviour at the Finsbury Park Hotel. His attendance at the Vienna on the night of the murder then focused attention on that hotel. Various statements by Nudds kept that suspicion at bay. The cartridge cases were discovered on September 11, still, I believe keeping the focus on Alphon, as Nudds statements at that time were in line with him being in that room on the night of the murder. I don't have all my notes to hand as I am at work (on a break) but it seems to me that the 'discovery' of the cartridge cases were an 'insurance' to keep the focus at that hotel because it was expected that more evidence would emerge against Alphon. when it didn't, the focus had to shift but remain at the hotel because the cartridge cases had been 'found' there.

Must go but will try to return to this later this week or early next week.

Julie (Limehouse)

[NickB]

Actually Nudds first statement (15th Sept) fingered Ryan more than Alphon. In this Nudds said that when Ryan left the Vienna:
“I told him to walk to Harrow Road, which is about half a mile away, and get a 36 bus ...”

Nudds second statement, so much admired by some as a thing of truth and beauty, (21st Sept) then fingered Alphon.

[Derrick]

Actually Nudds first statement (15th Sept) fingered Ryan more than Alphon. In this Nudds said that when Ryan left the Vienna:
“I told him to walk to Harrow Road, which is about half a mile away, and get a 36 bus ...”

Nudds second statement, so much admired by some as a thing of truth and beauty, (21st Sept) then fingered Alphon.

Actually, Nudds said, at both the hearing and the trial, that two of his statements had been lies from start to finish.

If that is the case, then we can only assume that whatever he said cannot be believed at all.

[NickB]

But I don’t believe that Nudds gave directions to Ryan for the number 36 bus. Hanratty said he walked to Paddington station and I believe him on that particular point.

I think this shows the police were first of all more interested in Ryan than Durrant/Alphon.

When I was looking at the report of Nudds evidence I noticed this ...

When the hearing resumed after the lunch adjournment, Mr Swanwick told the judge that a witness had a communication to make, but did not wish to give it to anyone but Superintendent Acott of Scotland Yard.
Instructions had been issued that Mr Macdermott (of the Director of Public Prosecutions Department) should personally interview this witness ...
Just before Mr Justice Gorman adjourned the hearing until Monday, Mr Swanwick again raised the point. He handed a piece of paper to Mr Sherrard and told the Judge it referred to an interview with the person about whom they had earlier been speaking.
He did not think it would be fair to mention it in full before Mr Sherrard had had a chance to study it. Mr Sherrard said he would have to take further instructions in the matter.
Mr Swanwick said the matter would be mentioned again on Monday.

Then on Monday ...

Before Mrs Anderson was called the jury were out of court for 40 minutes while Mr Swanwick raised a question.
The Judge asked the press not to report anything which took place while the jury was out. When the jury returned he told them there had been a legal discussion about the admissibility of certain evidence and it had been thought fit that this should take place in the jury’s absence.

Does anyone know what this was all about? Presumably the evidence was deemed inadmissible.

[Spitfire]

But the ‘traditional’ theory is that it was - he informed the police that Ryan was Hanratty and told them he hid stuff under the back seat of buses.

Agreed, but to my mind this indicates that Dixie had not been responsible for supplying the gun to Hanratty.