A6 Rebooted

[Graham]

John,

Let's leave it at that, then. I'm sorry if I offended you. I genuinely admire your enthusiasm for the A6 Case, but we plainly have different concepts and understandings of certain aspects of it. It is immensely complex and I honestly doubt if it will ever be fully resolved one way or the other with regard to the memory of James Hanratty.

Graham

[j.kettle1]

Hi Graham.

Let's leave it at that, then. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Thank you for that and I must admit that I played my part in our little "scuffle".
Now that is over may I draw on your greater knowledge of this forum and wider appreciation of this case.
I'm 100% sure that I have seen a photo that clearly shows two empty cartridge cases on the floor of the MM behind the passenger seat.
Do you have any recollection of seeing this on this site?
I visit many other sites so I may have seen it elsewhere.

Thanks in advance,

John

[j.kettle1]

Hi Derrick,
Sorry it was remiss of me not to reply sooner.

You may want to bear in mind that Miss Storie told the court that the gunman, whilst they were still in the cornfield, said, on more than one occasion that "there was no hurry".

That would seem to suggest that he wasn't waiting for anybody in particular to show up soon to aid his plan, whatever that may have been.

Of course, you are right.
The only observation I would make is that this could have been a way of ramping the fear factor for the occupants of the car.

Thanks

John

[Derrick]

...The only observation I would make is that this could have been a way of ramping the fear factor for the occupants of the car...

John

It is a valid point.

And he held them under gunpoint for the whole journey.

But he asked for their money and watches, only to return the watches later on. He also gave Storie a threepenny bit from the garage change; as a wedding present.

Whatever his motive was is completely unclear.

I don't subscribe to the theory of a family plot to break up the couple. It is nonsense because it is far too dangerous when considering the pros and cons.

And I also don't think it was a spur of the moment attack either.

I believe it was pre-planned, but for what reason, I wouldn't like to say.

Del

[Spitfire]

I believe it was pre-planned, but for what reason, I wouldn't like to say.

Del

But can you give your reasons as to why you think it was pre-planned?

[Derrick]

But can you give your reasons as to why you think it was pre-planned?

I find it almost impossible to believe that a man dressed in a lounge suit armed with a gun would be aimlessly walking around a field in the middle of nowhere and then stumble upon a car to hijack.

[Graham]

I find it almost impossible to believe that a man dressed in a lounge suit armed with a gun would be aimlessly walking around a field in the middle of nowhere and then stumble upon a car to hijack.

Yes, and this of course is where the A6 Case becomes almost mind-bendingly odd.

JH was, usually, a sharp dresser. He liked to burgle houses, with mixed results. He thought there would be better profit in getting a gun and doing stick-ups. So he got his gun, and off he went into the night, and ended up holding up a courting-couple in a small car in a remote field, not quite in the middle of nowhere, but near enough. The couple, it seems, were in that field purely fortuitously. So what, you ask, was JH doing there? Had he just that day got hold of the gun and felt like Gary Cooper? Was he planning to 'do' a posh property in the vicinity of Dorney Reach? Why there? His normal stomping grounds for burglary were further north - Kenton, Harrow, Stanmore.
So why on earth did he suddenly appear in the middle of a huge field after dark? Was he in the area for other reasons?

Mike Gregsten came from well-educated, comfortably-off, middle-class stock.
Valerie Storey, though perhaps not as "kippers and curtains" as Mike, was not exactly a factory worker. He was a notorious womaniser. They were having an affair. Even if Gregsten's family (his parents were divorced) knew of this and disapproved, would they really, seriously, hire a gunman to point out the error of his ways? No chance! Or his wife? She too came from a broken home, and had a slightly Bohemian upbringing. She also said she was fully aware of Mike's affairs and infidelity, and that she was not all that bothered by them as she was also aware of her shortcomings as a wife. To his lasting credit, Paul Foot, who initially thought that Janet Gregsten was the originator of the crime, stated towards the end of his life, after meeting her, that he had made a big mistake.

So what have we got? Naughty couple in small car in big field, late evening. being intimate. Man with gun suddenly materialises, gets in car, starts yakking, tells them to drive. Sounds pre-planned, doesn't it? Yet never, not even a hint over the past 53 years, has it been shown that Hanratty was 'sent to the field'. It has been suggested, but no more than that.

I really do think that we are left with a very frustrated would-be stick-up man, with a new gun, nowhere worthwhile to break into or hold up, and a Morris Minor that just happened to be there when he was. But, again, why on earth was Hanratty in that part of the world anyway?

Graham

[j.kettle1]

MM forensics.

There is no evidence that there were bloody footprints leading away from the car in Avondale Crescent, and this is what would be expected as the blood in the car would have been dry, or at least significantly congealed.
In that case surely the driver must have left some evidence of sole pattern, shoe size or at least some kind of evidence that would have been preserved in the blood.
Could he really have been that careful?
Did the police ask anyone to specifically surrender their shoes?

Thanks

John

[NickB]

In the inventory that Natalie obtained, referred to earlier, for Alphon there is listed:
‘Blazer, pair of trousers, pair of shoes, shirt’.

[Spitfire]

It was a pointless crime with no apparent motive.

Hanratty could drive, up to what standard is debatable. He had some proficiency in stealing cars. If he required a car, there was no need to hold up Gregsten and Storie. Yet for reasons only known to himself, James Hanratty appears to have done just that.

The motives of robbery and/or rape can be fairly easily discounted. The proceeds of robbing a courting couple (to use an old fashioned and not entirely appropriate phrase) in a humble Morris Minor, surely would not justify the risk of armed robbery. The fact that several hours elapsed between the initial abduction and the rape would seem to indicate that Hanratty was not driven by an overwhelming urge for sex.

We will never know what drove Hanratty to do what he seems to have done. Maybe he had set out that morning from the Vienna intending to do a stick-up at a bank or post office in an affluent Thames valley village, and maybe his 'bottle' had gone.

How or why he got to Dorney Reach on that fateful night is likewise subject to only speculation. Maybe lost in his thoughts, he gets physically lost, maybe he becomes apprehensive, wandering the highways of the Home Counties equipped for theft is one thing, going equipped for armed robbery is another. Perhaps he thought that by holding up the couple he would get some practice in acting the armed robber, so the day would not be completely wasted.

Perhaps with his limited intelligence he perceived that the answer to his problem was to hijack the car and its occupants. He obviously did not have the imagination to foresee the consequences of his actions.

[Derrick]

Hi Graham
Taking your points one by one;

JH was, usually, a sharp dresser. He liked to burgle houses, with mixed results.

He said in evidence that around the time of the A6 murder he had made over £1000 from robberies, £600 of which had come from Mrs Anderson. He was only wanted at that time for the March/April break-ins. That is a lot of money and most of it he pissed away at the dogs, as he confessed that the dogs and gambling were his downfall.

He thought there would be better profit in getting a gun and doing stick-ups.

We all know that there is no evidence of Hanratty ever getting a gun. The prosecution saw no mileage in calling either Fisher or Slack to say otherwise. He was making a lot of dough through his robberies.

So he got his gun, and off he went into the night, and ended up holding up a courting-couple in a small car in a remote field, not quite in the middle of nowhere, but near enough.

How did he get there and why should he have gone there? He had stolen Tom to dispose of as his London fences wouldn't handled it. He was after cash for his latest scores.

The couple, it seems, were in that field purely fortuitously.

Miss Storie said that they had visited that field on numerous occasions in the previous months. In her statement of September 11th Valerie says that she and Gregsten had sexual intercourse in that car in that field on the previous Sunday night at about 9pm.

So what, you ask, was JH doing there? Had he just that day got hold of the gun and felt like Gary Cooper?

If he had just gotten hold of that gun that day then he couldn't have left the spent cartridge cases in the Vienna Hotel. Unless someone delivered it to him before he left of course!

Was he planning to 'do' a posh property in the vicinity of Dorney Reach? Why there? His normal stomping grounds for burglary were further north - Kenton, Harrow, Stanmore...

Quite.

Del

[NickB]

But the whole basis of his alibi is just so implausible - going around the country making half-hearted attempts to sell a ring at vague addresses. He sold it in London anyway.

And it is not too much of a stretch to imagine that after leaving the Vienna and walking to Paddington station he got a train from there, rather than going on to Euston.

[j.kettle1]

Hi Nick,

In the inventory that Natalie obtained, referred to earlier, for Alphon there is listed:
‘Blazer, pair of trousers, pair of shoes, shirt’.

Thanks for that.
But did the police specifically ask Alphon to surrender his shoes, or did they just ask him to surrender his clothing, and they just happened to have been part of that?
Didn't Alphon also refuse to divulge to the police where some of his clothing was, so what could have been the reason for that?

Thanks

John

[Graham]

Hi Del,

He said in evidence that around the time of the A6 murder he had made over £1000 from robberies, £600 of which had come from Mrs Anderson. He was only wanted at that time for the March/April break-ins. That is a lot of money and most of it he pissed away at the dogs, as he confessed that the dogs and gambling were his downfall.

Easy come, easy go with JH. No-one knows how much lolly he had in his tailored pockets that night, but he paid his bill at The Vienna with no apparent problem

We all know that there is no evidence of Hanratty ever getting a gun. The prosecution saw no mileage in calling either Fisher or Slack to say otherwise. He was making a lot of dough through his robberies.

Hang on a bit - some of us do believe that JH was the A6 Killer, so your sentence should read We all know that there is no real evidence of HOW JH got the gun Although I for one certainly wouldn't rule out Mr France.

How did he get there and why should he have gone there? He had stolen Tom to dispose of as his London fences wouldn't handled it. He was after cash for his latest scores.

Don't know how he got to the field.

Miss Storie said that they had visited that field on numerous occasions in the previous months. In her statement of September 11th Valerie says that she and Gregsten had sexual intercourse in that car in that field on the previous Sunday night at about 9pm.

Indeed, but that night they first stopped off at a field in Huntercombe Lane and stayed there a while before driving round the corner to the Marsh Lane field. So unless JH followed them, how would he know that they would be where he found them?

If he had just gotten hold of that gun that day then he couldn't have left the spent cartridge cases in the Vienna Hotel. Unless someone delivered it to him before he left of course!

No-one can know precisely when he got the gun, but I strongly suggest it wasn't long before the abduction. And yes, someone could have delivered it to him at The Vienna. Maybe the gun contained spent cartridge-cases left there by the previous owner.



Quite.

Del[/QUOTE]

Graham

[NickB]

Didn't Alphon also refuse to divulge to the police where some of his clothing was

Woffinden claimed Alphon refused to say where his clothes were, and reports Acott saying:

“I shall have every pawnbroker visited and I shall probably find them ... Have you got any bags or cases?”

But the dots cut out Alphon’s response: “All right, I've a pair of trousers in Thompson's in the Uxbridge Road."

From the inventory it appears that these were retrieved as well as a blazer, shoes and shirt. I don’t know if he was asked specifically for his shoes. It would be good to have these documents available somewhere in an unexpurgated form.

Maybe the gun contained spent cartridge-cases left there by the previous owner.

I doubt this because he would probably have noticed 2 of 6 cartridge cases missing when he reloaded.

This is my theory:

I think he tested the gun himself and collected the used cartridges in, say, a handkerchief each time he reloaded. Then in the Vienna he spread out the hanky on the chair and emptied the most recent cartridges from the gun on to it. In the dark alcove he did not notice two of them fall down the side because there would be a whole pile of cartridges on the hanky, which he then wrapped up for future disposal before reloading the gun.