A6 Rebooted

[Sherlock Houses]

James Williams/Albert Stillings.............

Just over 4 months after Hanratty's execution this double act were in the news again...............

[j.kettle1]

Merely a different car to marque he had driven on previous occasions.

So let me get this right.
You admit that there are no differences between the controls of the MM and other cars that Hanratty has driven, yet theorise that he is spooked merely because it is a different model of car.
Well this theory doesn't hold, otherwise for each different model of car that he stole he would have had to have waited for the owner to show him how it worked, and so wouldn't have been able to steal it.

Thanks

John

[j.kettle1]

Found this from "Mad" Frankie Fraser.

http://www.madfrankiefraser.co.uk/fr....htm~mainFrame

Gives his opinion on the JH verdict later on, but first contains a very interesting paragraph about the FSS.

Thanks

John

[Spitfire]

So let me get this right.
You admit that there are no differences between the controls of the MM and other cars that Hanratty has driven, yet theorise that he is spooked merely because it is a different model of car.
Well this theory doesn't hold, otherwise for each different model of car that he stole he would have had to have waited for the owner to show him how it worked, and so wouldn't have been able to steal it.

Thanks

John

If Hanratty had been a competent driver and able to handle a relatively powerful Sunbeam or Jag then I would agree that the controls of a Moggie should not present too many difficulties.

If Hanratty had been a novice driver then I can well see that he would require some reassurance as to the operation of the vehicle.

I think that this aspect was fully explored at the trial.

[j.kettle1]

Thank you Spitfire.

If Hanratty had been a novice driver then I can well see that he would require some reassurance as to the operation of the vehicle.

I think that this aspect was fully explored at the trial.

I think that it would take a giant leap of imagination to expect that he would require the assistance of Valerie to restart the car. He couldn't have been a car thief if he couldn't perform such a basic task.
Regarding the matter being fully explored in court. I'm sorry but I don't view what happened in court as absolute in terms of truth.

Thanks

John

[Spitfire]

Thank you Spitfire.




I think that it would take a giant leap of imagination to expect that he would require the assistance of Valerie to restart the car. He couldn't have been a car thief if he couldn't perform such a basic task.
Regarding the matter being fully explored in court. I'm sorry but I don't view what happened in court as absolute in terms of truth.

Thanks

John

I am glad you mentioned that. I owned a 1960 Morris Minor which like all its stable mates of the period, including the ill-fated 847 BHN, had a pull-button start. In order to start the car, it was necessary to put the key in the ignition and turn it, then one pulls the starter button on the dashboard. It may well have been the case that Hanratty, used only to nicking the more expensive marques, was not aware of this procedure for starting the Moggie.

[Graham]

I am glad you mentioned that. I owned a 1960 Morris Minor which like all its stable mates of the period, including the ill-fated 847 BHN, had a pull-button start. In order to start the car, it was necessary to put the key in the ignition and turn it, then one pulls the starter button on the dashboard. It may well have been the case that Hanratty, used only to nicking the more expensive marques, was not aware of this procedure for starting the Moggie.

Indeed, and on my 1952 crate I pulled the frigging bakelite button clean off, and had to use a pair of pliers until I could locate a new button. Strangely enough, some Jags of that period still had an ignition-key lock plus a starter button which you pressed. I was also the very unfortunate owner of a 1960 Mini in which you shoved the key into the lock on the steering column, then reached behind you to press a large-diameter button on the floor!

I know this is off-thread, but I drive a VW Passat 2-litre, very nice car, but it has an electronic servo-operated "parking brake", the operating button of which is on the RH side of the dash. It's supposed to disengage automatically as you let the clutch in, but it doesn't always happen and then you have to press the button! Only the Germans.....

Graham

[j.kettle1]

Hi Spitfire, thank you for that info regarding the starting procedure for the MM.

Hadn't JH been operating a mechanical shovel and who knows what else as part of his employment at 'Green Brothers'?
He was also adept at stealing various makes and models of cars, so I'm pretty sure that different starting techniques would pose no problem to him.
In all probability he observed the MM being started on three occasions (twice in the cornfield and once on Deadman's Hill), and yet still required to be shown for a fourth time?
This doesn't tally with what we know, and nor does the tutorial about the cars controls.

Thanks.

John

[Spitfire]

Hi Spitfire, thank you for that info regarding the starting procedure for the MM.

Hadn't JH been operating a mechanical shovel and who knows what else as part of his employment at 'Green Brothers'?
He was also adept at stealing various makes and models of cars, so I'm pretty sure that different starting techniques would pose no problem to him.
In all probability he observed the MM being started on three occasions (twice in the cornfield and once on Deadman's Hill), and yet still required to be shown for a fourth time?
This doesn't tally with what we know, and nor does the tutorial about the cars controls.

Thanks.

John

I would have to dispute how adept JH was at car theft. The number of times he was nicked for what would now be called TWOC indicate that he may not have had the necessary driving proficiency to pass police scrutiny as a legitimate driver. We also know that he bashed his Irish hire car and probably was responsible for denting the rear bumper and knocking out the rear light of his Sunbeam.

Would an experienced car thief have crashed a hire car within a few miles of getting behind the wheel of it? Would an accomplish car thief dent the rear bumper and knock out a rear light of his pride and joy within a few days of taking delivery of it? These are questions which should be asked to determine the driving ability of JH.

It seems not unreasonable for him to ask VS how to start the Moggie, even though he had been in the car when it had been started previously by Gregsten. That JH was not expecting to drive until he killed Gregsten and it was dark when MG was driving, are factors which may have weighed with the jury on this aspect.

[NickB]

twice in the cornfield and once on Deadman's Hill, and yet still required to be shown for a fourth time?

On that last occasion Valerie volunteered to restart the car, desperately trying to get him to leave.

[Victor]

This doesn't tally with what we know, and nor does the tutorial about the cars controls.

Hi John,

Then there's the emotional\mental state of someone who has just (possibly accidentally) shot someone at very close range, and raped someone, and shot VS multiple times leaving her for dead. I don't think the argument that these events wouldn't effect someone's driving ability is at all tenable.

KR,
Vic.

[j.kettle1]

Hi Victor,
thank you for reply.

Then there's the emotional\mental state of someone who has just (possibly accidentally) shot someone at very close range, and raped someone, and shot VS multiple times leaving her for dead. I don't think the argument that these events wouldn't effect someone's driving ability is at all tenable.

I have never suggested otherwise.

Just to avoid confusion here is my original question.

So what in your opinion would he need to be shown by Valerie that was different from the other cars that he had driven in order to drive the MM away?

Thanks

John

[Derrick]

I'm sorry to sound obtuse but over 1 Million cars of that type were made and it seems that it was a car that could be driven by anybody. (A great deal of interest still surrounds the model today)

Valerie Storie could, by her evidence, drive it, so I find it implausible that James Hanratty would have any trouble in doing the same.

To me, only a man, because it was a man, with limited driving experience would have trouble taking away a MM.

Sherrard famously said that the prosecution suggested that the gunman, in his supposed inexperience of driving, was giving the victims a blind. But as the gunman was certainly guilty of the attempted murder of Storie then that idea is nonsense.

Del

[NickB]

I doubt it was a blind, but I don't think you can assume he’d already decided to shoot her at the time of the demonstration. It appears he was uncertain what to do. He was in the drivers seat, got out, then went back into the drivers seat, then got out again and talked about hitting her on the head.

Sherrard only had to explain how the incapable driver struggled to Ilford. The current pro-Hanratty theory, if I understand it correctly, is that he spent the whole day driving around the country.

[Victor]

Just to avoid confusion here is my original question.
So what in your opinion would he need to be shown by Valerie that was different from the other cars that he had driven in order to drive the MM away?

Hi John,

It's reasonable to say the gunman was flustered and agitated, on top of having just stalled when trying to make a quick getaway. Therefore he may just be asking for a refresher rather than to be taught something new, or even just time to calm down a bit so he could concentrate and focus.

A lot of cars have their own quirks and nuances, and certainly when I get into an unfamiliar car (like a hire car for example) it can take a little while to get comfortable with how it operates.

Even professional drivers make occasional mistakes, so whilst I can agree that it could be "unlikely" that a seasoned car thief (even a flustered one) would stall, I believe it's stretching things to say it's improbable that a (flustered) seasoned car thief would stall.

KR,
Vic.