A6 Rebooted

[Limehouse]

I did some research a few years back and I am almost positive that the gun in question ejected the cartridges when the gun was fired. I can't find the post concerned now as it could be anywhere in the many threads concerning this crime.

I did the research to show how unlikely it was that the gunman would have left two cartridge cases in the hotel room because, to do so would have either meant he fired the gun in the room, or that he fired it elsewhere and gathered up the spent cartridges, only to carelessly leave them behind as evidence.

I will try to find my original post and the sources I used.

[j.kettle1]

Ballistics report.

Hi GUT and Derrick and thank you. I hope that I've not missed anyone that has taken the time to reply to my posts.

Derrick, I totally agree wrt to the ballistics. For a capital case there ought to have been a comprehensive report available, yet I can find very little info, except the inventory that someone very kindly post on one of the A6 threads.
Does anyone know whether a ballistics report was made available to the defence, or if it was just word of mouth. I mean if the gunman broke the gun in the car to remove the spent cases then why? - he still had four bullets and he was faced only with Valerie, whom I'm sure he could have physically overpowered if required. It leads me to believe that the cases were ejected by the action of firing the gun, rather than a manual reload.

Similarly the forensics report from the car. If there is a comprehensive report, how much is actually available?
Surely sticky tape could have picked up soil from Dorney Reach in the back of the car, which would have then corroborated the narrative.
And what dabs were found in the car - and where?

So much unknown.

Thanks

John

[Spitfire]

It leads me to believe that the cases were ejected by the action of firing the gun, rather than a manual reload.

So you are saying the murder weapon was not an Enfield No2 Mk1 revolver, which retains the spent cartridges until the gun is broken?

[j.kettle1]

Hi Spitfire.

So you are saying the murder weapon was not an Enfield No2 Mk1 revolver, which retains the spent cartridges until the gun is broken?

There are only three ways that those cases could have been on the floor of the MM.

1. They were ejected when the gun was fired.

2. The gun was manually reloaded in the car by the gunman.

3. They were placed in the car after the murder but before the car was abandoned.

I am just positing which of the three above is most likely.

Thanks

John

[NickB]

But there were no cases found in the car, and only 6 outside.

If the cases had been ejected each shot there would have been not just 2 in the car but 7 or 8 outside too.

According to Valerie 2 bullets were fired in the car and “4 or 5” bullets fired outside before reloading and then 3 more.

If it was "4", then this explains the 6 cartridge cases found left at the scene after breaking the gun.

If it was "5", this means there had been a previous reloading but of only one round, which doesn’t make much sense after two shots. Then there would have been 1 additional case somewhere.

[j.kettle1]

Hi NickB.

But there were no cases found in the car, and only 6 outside.

There exists somewhere a photo that clearly shows two cases on the floor of the MM behind the passenger seat.

I will post it when I find it.

Thanks

John

[Spitfire]

Hi Spitfire.



There are only three ways that those cases could have been on the floor of the MM.

1. They were ejected when the gun was fired.

2. The gun was manually reloaded in the car by the gunman.

3. They were placed in the car after the murder but before the car was abandoned.

I am just positing which of the three above is most likely.

Thanks

John

If the murder weapon had been an Enfield .38 No 2 Mk 1 revolver, which seems to be agreed by all who have previously had anything to do with the case (apart from Limehouse obviously), then it is physically impossible for the spent cartridges to be ejected when the gun is fired.

[NickB]

In his book Simpson did say of Gregsten: "He had two .32 calibre bullet wounds of the head".

But he does not make any comment on the significance of saying .32 when everyone else said .38. This suggests a typo or faulty recollection.

Also, if it had been an automatic there would have been more cartridge cases at the scene – i.e. additional cases for the final 3 shots.

[j.kettle1]

If the murder weapon had been an Enfield .38 No 2 Mk 1 revolver, which seems to be agreed by all who have previously had anything to do with the case (apart from Limehouse obviously), then it is physically impossible for the spent cartridges to be ejected when the gun is fired.

Which then raises a number of other questions.


It was dark - it would have been difficult to see which were bullets and which were casings.

The gunman was wearing gloves - it would have been difficult if not impossible to grip the empty casings.

It doesn't make sense to risk reloading under these circumstances when there were four shots left.

[NickB]

John, Are the photos you're thinking of the ones in the thread 'A6 -location of scene and 2nd appeal' post 158?

There does appear to be one item on the floor, but I can’t see if it is a blood splattered cartridge case.

[j.kettle1]

Hi NickB,

thanks for finding that pic.

Somewhere there's an enlargement of that pic, and it clearly shows that the objects on the floor of the MM are two bullet casings.

I will post it when I find it, but it's proving elusive at the moment.

Thanks

John

[j.kettle1]

Sorry Spitfire I missed this. It's very interesting.

.

I posed your question on a gun forum and got the reply that all cartridge cases are ejected irrespective of whether they have been fired or not.

Spitfire alias Beaufighter asks the question

So how were there only two empty cases in the rear of the MM?
How likely is it that there were only two bullets in the gun to begin with?

[Spitfire]

.

So how were there only two empty cases in the rear of the MM?
How likely is it that there were only two bullets in the gun to begin with?

There weren't.

Not very.

Someone called NatalieSevern posted an inventory of what was found here at post 106.

There were two bullets found in the car but no cartridge cases.

Six cartridge cases were found at the crime scene outside the car.

[j.kettle1]

Hi Spitfire.

Maybe my recollection of the photo was wishful thinking as I can't find it!

It looks like you are correct.

Apologies

John

[Limehouse]

Hi all,

I have found the post on which I posted my views concerning the cartridges. It was posted for a second time on post 128 of the 'scene of crime and 2nd appeal' thread:

The cartridge cases were found by a General Manager of the hotel group, who was appointed on 8 August to oversee the general running of the four hotels in the group. He was carrying out an inspection of the premises with the manageress of the hotel when he noticed a piece of fabric hanging down from underneath a chair in room 24. As he moved the chair a .38 cartridge case fell onto the floor. The manageress found a second cartridge case towards the back of the chair. The police were contacted because another guest who had stayed at the hotel on the night of 22 August (Peter Louis Alphon, who booked in as , Frederick Durrant) had been the focus of original enquiries concerning the A6 crime.

Alphon was subsequently eliminated from the enquiry when Valerie Storie failed to select him from an identity parade but the police were, naturally, convinced that as spent cartridge cases from the crime had been found in room 24 of the Vienna Hotel, the person responsible for the crime must have had a connection with that hotel. Their attention turned to Hanratty who, as J Ryan, had booked into the hotel on the night of 21 August and slept in room 24.

The obvious question to ask concerning the discovery of the spent cartridge cases is why did it take almost three weeks to find them when they were sitting on a chair close to the bed? Following Hanratty’s departure from the hotel on the morning of 22 August, the bed linen was changed by Mrs Galves (the hotel manageress) and Mrs Snell (a hotel assistant) and they had to move the chair to make up the bed. (Lord Russell, 1965) Why didn’t these ladies discover the cartridge cases when they were found so easily a few weeks later?

The second question concerning the presence of the cartridge cases in room 24 is why a man intending to commit armed robbery in the future would be so careless as to leave the cartridge cases in the room in the first place? As they were spent cartridge cases they must have been fired from the gun and were not discharged during loading. Therefore, the person who left them must either have discharged the gun in the room or discharged it elsewhere and collected up the spent cartridges. Remember, according to the prosecution, these cases were left in the room BEFORE the crime. The argument of the court is that the gun was fired in order to test it.

Now, if the gun was fired to test it, because the gunman was unsure if it worked or how effective it was, then it is highly unlikely the gunman would fire it in a hotel room where it might be heard and/or cause damage. In the unlikely event that the gun WAS fired in the hotel room and was not heard, the gunman would immediately dispense with the ejected cartridges - not leave them lying on a chair. Again, if the gun was fired in the hotel room, where is the evidence of damage to hotel furnishings or fabrics?

Much more likely is the scenario whereby the gunman takes the gun somewhere remote and tests it there. In that scenario the gunman is unlikely to be returning to the hotel and therefore cannot, carelessly or otherwise, leave the cartridges in the hotel. However, it is possible that the gunman tested the gun somewhere remote before he booked into the hotel. In that case, the gunman is hardly likely to have gathered up the cartridges and taken them with him.

Let's return to the chair. If the spent cartridges had 'rolled' out from a bag or jacket owned by the gunman onto the chair, they would have been discovered the next day when the chair was moved to make the bed. They could not have become 'trapped' between the back of the chair and its fixed cushion because it would have taken some force for them to slip between the back of the chair and its fixed cushion. Had they become trapped and therefore unseen, they would not have simply rolled out when the chair was examined closely by the general manager some weeks later.
It is much more likely that someone else fired that gun to get those cartridges to plant evidence at an appropriate time if needed.

The gun used in the crime was, as has been stated, found by a cleaner underneath the back seat of a 36A bus garaged at Rye Lane, New Cross in London on the evening of 24 August. The gun, along with some ammunition, was found underneath a hanky. The prosecution case was that, not only did Hanratty habitually use this space underneath the seat of a bus as a hiding place for unwanted loot but, that this bus travelled along Sussex Gardens, close to the bottom of Sutherland Avenue, the location of the Vienna Hotel. However, according to the evidence of Edwin Cooke, the cleaner who found the weapon and five boxes of ammunition, the weapon could not have been there before 24 August as a thorough examination of the bus had been carried out on the previous evening. The gun and ammunition had to have been hidden on the bus sometime during the day of 24 August, two days after the shooting.

My point is, what has the location of the hotel to do with the bus route given the sequence of events described above? Is it alleged that Hanratty abandoned the car on the morning of the 23 August on the east side of London and then returned close to the Vienna Hotel on the west side a day later to board a bus in order to abandon the weapon? Is that likely?


As you can imagine, I feel strongly that these cartridge cases were planted.