Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A6 Rebooted

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 2010 photo of Public convenience on Scotland Road

    Attached is a 2010 photo I came across. It's a close-up of the entrance to what was once either the Ladie's or Gent's toilets on that traffic island opposite David Cowley's sweetshop in Scotland Road.
    Attached Files
    *************************************
    "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

    "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

    Comment


    • Good stuff, SH! Having never been in central Liverpool in my life, never mind Scotland Road, I had no real concept of what the area looked and looks like. It's obvious that the photo in Foot's book has been cropped, and I often wondered what the strange structure was this side of the picket fence on the island. Now I know! Why, then, did Hanratty in his initial interrogation say that the shop was opposite a cinema? And then change this to public loos, bits of which still exist? 'Remembering' things from a previous visit, perhaps, as he undoubtedly did reference the Rhyl 'Alibi'?



      Graham
      We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Graham View Post
        ...'Remembering' things from a previous visit, perhaps, as he undoubtedly did reference the Rhyl 'Alibi'?...
        I can assume by this statement that you are saying that Hanratty's alleged Rhyl visit on 22nd August was nothing more than a lie. That it had been cobbled together from memories of a previous visit.

        If that is so, and correct me if I am wrong and that was not your view, then there is one major problem with it.

        Beside the alleged August visit, Hanratty had only visited Rhyl once previously in 1961. That was, if I remember correctly, on July 25th-26th. He was, obviously, doing porridge for the previous 3 years.

        On that visit in July Hanratty was completely destitute. He didn't have two farthings to rub together. He had just acquired a NI card in Cardiff and used that to gain employ on Mr Webbers bumper car rides at the fairground.

        He stayed with Evans that night. Evans lent him a pair of shoes because his others were knackered. He left Rhyl the next day taking the shoes with him. He had either stolen cars or thumbed lifts for the whole of that excursion.

        How could Hanratty, destitute as he was, have afforded 25 bob for a room at a guesthouse, a shave, meals at Dixie's cafe and pinball at the arcades?

        I have not included his various travel expenses.

        Comment


        • Re. Hanratty's statement about there being a cinema on the other side of the street to the sweet shop there was in fact a cinema ['The Gaiety' at 41-45 Scotland Road] on that side of the street a few hundred yards before he got to the traffic island. This could be the cinema he was recalling if indeed his memory was accurate on this particular matter. It is far more likely in my opinion for him to have remembered a public convenience [especially if he had cause to use it while crossing over the street to Cowley's sweetshop] rather than a cinema. And we do know that Hanratty made that statement in December 1961 about the men's/ladies toilets and the sweetshop being a corner shop by traffic lights.
          *************************************
          "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

          "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

          Comment


          • Derrick,

            Well, you asked for it, so here it is:

            Hanratty's (JH from here on in) "road-trip" starting 21st July 1961 reads almost like something out of Kerouac. He and a mate called Terry (not Terry Evans of Rhyl) first nicked a car at Hendon and headed north. They sold the spare wheel in Birmingham to raise money for petrol - and here JH's salesmanship must be praised, as Brummies are notoriously tight and hard to sell anything to. They then went on to Shrewsbury - by the way, all of this is per JH's own statement - had a puncture there and with no spare wheel, and JH did a runner when a copper stepped over to see what was going on. His mate Terry was pinched. (I believe efforts were made by the police to trace this Terry). A little later, JH was chased on foot by another copper, but escaped. Again, all this is according to his own statement.

            He then hitched a lift with a lorry going to Cardiff (presumably via Hereford and Abergavenny) but he was kicked out at Newport. He then got another lift to Cardiff where he got a new NI card. Next day, he was in Liverpool.

            By his own admission, he wanted to return to London, so to raise money for the fare he burgled a house in or near Crosby (oddly enough, this is north of Liverpool) and nicked some silver, and with it he returned to Liverpool. He sold the silver to a jeweller for 1.5.00, so he wasn't totally penniless when he boarded the bus for Rhyl on the evening of 25th July. I have a vague memory of reading that in 1961 the fare for a one-way bus-ride Liverpool to Rhyl was about 7 bob.

            At Rhyl he met Terry Evans, a.k.a. Terry Starr. Whether JH knew Evans previously, I don't know, but I tbhink there's a good chance that he did. Evans was also a thief, so the pair of them must have got on like a house on fire. JH still had some stuff from the Crosby heist, and doubtless hoped that Evans would point him in the right direction to sell it. Whatever his plans, JH worked on Arthur Webber's dodgems, where Evans also worked, for a few hours. Evans then invited JH to stay at his house, which JH did. Evans did indeed loan JH a new pair of shoes, which JH promptly nicked and walked away with. The next day Evans was in court regarding the theft of some spark-plugs (!), and while he was thus engaged JH did a runner.

            JH said he returned to Liverpool by bus - so he must have had enough money for the fare - and that night he was accosted by two men outside a cafe. JH whacked one of them - yes, even dear, gentle JH - but fortunately in the ensuing scuffle some passers-by came to his help. The police arrived, JH was taken to a nearby hospital to have his injured leg seen to, and after making some kind of statement to the police he was released and spent that night in a hostel which cost him 4 shillings. Again, not totally skint, was he? In the morning he sold the remaining booty from the Crosby job, and had enough dosh for the train-fare back to London.

            So, Derrick, JH wasn't completely desititute as you claim. I'm sure he welcomed Terry Evans' offer of a sofa for the night as a cheaper alternative to a B&B, and was happy to keep some of the proceeds of his burglary in his pocket.

            JH's claimed stay at Ingledene on the night of 22nd August has never been proven. None of the traced guests who were most definitely there that night or the following night could remember seeing anyone who resembled him. These guests, incidentally, included the parents of the radical comedian Alexei Sayle, not that that proves anything either way.

            I have been to Rhyl and visited Ingledene. Even now you can hear the trains at Rhyl station behind Ingledene if you stand outside Ingledene on Kinmel (pronounced 'Kimmel' for your passing interest) Street. In 1961 there were still steam trains, so their noise would have been even more noticeable. Dixie's Cafe - across the road from Ingledene - was run by a Mr Gordon who, surprise, surprise, had no recollection of seeing Hanratty on 22 August or at any other time. Neither had any barbers in Rhyl, either in July or August.

            There is little doubt in my mind that JH, reference his claimed presence in Rhyl on the crucial date of the A6 Murder was recalling his previous visit in July, along with other memories of the inside of many B&B's and guest-houses he must have stayed in during his travels. He failed, let it not be forgotten, even to correctly describe Grace Jones of Ingledene. I would further suggest that JH was prone to confabulation, and genuinely believed his made-up memories of places and people. He never stayed at Ingledene in his life, and it has never been proved, nor will it ever be proved, that he did.

            Hope this helps. Really.

            Graham
            We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

            Comment


            • Hanratty's lack of funds during his July excursion to Rhyl would not necessarily prevent him from gaining knowledge and information which could be used to form the basis of an alibi for the 22/23 August.

              He would not have needed to spend 12/6 (12s 6d) per night on lodgings in July to say that he had spent that amount for the same purpose in August.

              He would not have needed to have had a shave at a barbers in July, to say that had had a shave in August.

              Likewise, he would not necessarily have needed to dine in Dixie's cafe in July to say he had done so in August.

              Comment


              • In the Crosby house he also stole two money boxes full of sixpences. He could have changed these in any bank. 14 sixpences would pay for the bus fare, so you need to add the remaining amount to the 1 5s to know how much he arrived at Rhyl with.

                --------

                If Alphon is discarded, doesn’t that make it much more difficult to provide an alternative explanation of the cartridge cases in the Vienna?

                Whoever planted them would need to:
                1) Get access to the room and not be seen.
                2) Know that Hanratty had occupied the room and which particular bed of the four in the room.
                3) Know that no-one else had occupied that bed since.

                Even then the plan would still depend upon:
                a) Crocker reporting it to the police.
                b) The police discovering the identity of J Ryan.
                c) Corroborating evidence (e.g. Valerie identifying him).
                Last edited by NickB; 08-18-2014, 03:09 AM.

                Comment


                • The total and laughable absurdity of the premise put forward by Graham Swanwick that the sweetshop incident took place on the Monday [while Hanratty was in London] can only be fully appreciated as follows. For all intents and purposes he was proposing that ......

                  1] A young man, the spitting image of Jimmy Hanratty, walks into the Cowley sweetshop sometime between 4pm and 5pm on Monday, August 21st. The very same time that Hanratty said he did on the Tuesday [22nd].

                  2] This young man, sounding just like Hanratty, a non-local out-of-towner whose dialect was hard for Mrs Dinwoodie to accurately place, asks Mrs Dinwoodie for directions to a Tarleton [or similar sounding thoroughfare] Road. The very same road Hanratty said he enquired about on the Tuesday.

                  3] Somehow or other, possibly by magic, Hanratty manages to get wind of this seemingly insignificant incident when he travels up to Liverpool over 6 weeks later on October 7th. Hanratty gets to meets his doppelganger on this visit and bribes him with some money to pretend it was him, Hanratty, in that sweetshop.
                  *************************************
                  "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                  "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Graham View Post
                    JH said he returned to Liverpool by bus - so he must have had enough money for the fare - and that night he was accosted by two men outside a cafe. JH whacked one of them - yes, even dear, gentle JH -
                    You've forgotten to add that one of the two thugs who were about to mug Hanratty had a knuckleduster in his hand. I think even the gentlest person in the world under those provocative circumstances would have done their utmost to stave off forthcoming blows possibly to one's head.

                    He never stayed at Ingledene in his life, and it has never been proved, nor will it ever be proved, that he did.
                    For someone who never stayed at Ingledene in his life Hanratty must have possessed uncanny psychic and telepathic powers to accurately describe Mrs Jones, the entrance hall with the coat-stand and flowers, the tiled courtyard at the rear, the fact that you could hear but not see trains shunting back and forth, the price [25 shillings] for two nights b&b, the lack of a front garden and of course............the green bath.
                    *************************************
                    "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                    "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Graham View Post
                      There is little doubt in my mind that JH, reference his claimed presence in Rhyl on the crucial date of the A6 Murder was recalling his previous visit in July
                      How can this possibly be when there was documented evidence......

                      1] of his obtaining a National Insurance Card on Monday morning [July 24th] at the Labour Exchange in Cardiff.
                      2] of his giving Arthur Webber this newly acquired National Insurance Card before starting work on the dodgems on the following evening [July 25th].
                      3] of his being assaulted in Liverpool on the evening of July 26th.

                      Proof of the fact that he was in Rhyl [staying at Terry Evans's house] for one night only, namely July 25th.
                      Last edited by Sherlock Houses; 08-18-2014, 06:47 AM.
                      *************************************
                      "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                      "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                      Comment


                      • Hi SH,

                        Originally posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
                        The total and laughable absurdity of the premise put forward by Graham Swanwick that the sweetshop incident took place on the Monday [while Hanratty was in London] can only be fully appreciated as follows.
                        Erm... not quite, see previous discussion of this.

                        For example, removing the absurd "spitting image" and "doppleganger" qualifiers are easily explained by the "only 1 photo" situation.

                        2nd, Mrs Dinwoodie says "probably Welsh or Scots accent" which is nothing like JH's cockney.

                        And of course, there's this quote from me...
                        Originally posted by Victor View Post
                        Alternatively, any crime for which an alibi might be needed was planned for that night. With Hanratty's house breaking record that isn't too hard to believe, but admittedly it's not his style except if he was planning something special, like his first job with a gun, perhaps?
                        Any comments on anything else in that post #1612

                        KR,
                        Vic.
                        Truth is female, since truth is beauty rather than handsomeness; this [...] would certainly explain the saying that a lie could run around the world before Truth has got its, correction, her boots on, since she would have to chose which pair - the idea that any woman in a position to choose would have just one pair of boots being beyond rational belief.
                        Unseen Academicals - Terry Pratchett.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Graham View Post
                          ...So, Derrick, JH wasn't completely desititute as you claim...
                          No, fair point, he was only completely skint until he reached Liverpool. And he only took 25 bob to Rhyl, over half of which was for the bus fair there and back according to you.

                          The fact that he had to stay in a hostel on his return to Liverpool shows he was on his uppers.

                          For the August 22nd visit to Rhyl he said he had 8 or 9 in his pocket, not a lot but enough to stay there for a couple of days without being destitute. He must have had already gotten himself a return train ticket.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Victor View Post

                            For example, removing the absurd "spitting image" and "doppleganger" qualifiers are easily explained by the "only 1 photo" situation.
                            The single photo of Hanratty which was shown to Mrs Dinwoodie by the Liverpool police [not, incidentally by Hanratty's defence team] conflicted with the rules governing identification of a person by photograph. She should have been shown several photographs from which to select one, if applicable. This was incompetence on the part of the police. However, soon afterwards Mrs Dinwoodie was shown a series of photographs amongst which was a completely different one of Hanratty. Without any hesitation she picked out Hanratty, confirming that he was indeed the man who had been in her sweetshop asking for directions.

                            Originally posted by Victor View Post
                            2nd, Mrs Dinwoodie says "probably Welsh or Scots accent" which is nothing like JH's cockney.
                            Mrs Dinwoodie found it difficult to understand Hanratty's accent, as you say she thought it might have been a Scots or Welsh accent. The Scottish accent is often mistaken for an Irish accent and two independent witnesses, namely William Nudds and Trevor Dutton, used exactly the same "possibly Irish" phrase in their statements describing Jimmy Hanratty's accent.
                            *************************************
                            "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                            "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                            Comment


                            • The more I think about Hanratty's 2 Rhyl visits the more dissimilar they become.

                              Hanratty went to Rhyl the second time knowing that Evans could put him in contact with a fence. Evans regretted that he couldn't say this at the trial.

                              Evans explained that Hanratty couldn't have found him in the August because his black taxi wasn't parked in the place that Hanratty had expected it to be when he first came to Rhyl.

                              Hanratty had breakfast in the Jones' own back room, away from all of the other guests. Brenda Harris said that only one visitor had been served breakfast in that room that season. Hanratty described this room exactly and said that that room looked out onto the courtyard, which it did.

                              Mr Larman, having made one statement to the police, saw Hanratty's picture in the press after the trial and recognised him straight away and made another to the defence's clerk, although nobody took any notice for another 6 years.

                              Comment


                              • Regarding the showing, in the first instance, of only one photo to Mrs Dinwoodie.

                                She could quite easily have turned to the idiot copper who had shown it to her and said "never seen him before in my life".

                                But she didn't.

                                As our own Sherlock has explained she was later shown a number of photos, including a different one of Hanratty. She picked him out straight away.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X