A6 Rebooted

[Derrick]

Well, with respect Richard, I have to slightly take issue with the claim that 'she recognised her attacker' in that second ID parade. She spent some 20 minutes studying the men, after which she asked each of them to speak. She didn't exactly march into the room and slap her hand on his shoulder.

Good point Julie

Hanratty might just as well of had a neon sign over his head saying "Look; here I am, suspect with dyed hair, Finking or otherwise".

Del

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie,

The killer had to be prepared to use the gun again. He had a long journey ahead of him in his victims’ car. What if it had broken down or run out of fuel and someone had seen blood inside, or been alerted by the police to look out for the car? Also, the fact that he left his only remaining witness alive would indicate panic and inexperience far more than a calculated crime by a gunman who knew what he was doing.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

Your points are all valid but I have to ask myself - why did he have to have a long journey ahead of him? Why did that car have to travel to London? Why did the gun have to travel to London with the car? Hanratty was a seasoned car thief and could have abandoned the car within a few miles of the layby. He could then have stolen another car to journey into London. He could also have abandoned the gun long before reaching London. Taking the car to London was a huge risk and yet we are asked to believe that he was driving in a manner that drew attention to himself, weaving in and out of traffic and grinning wildly at passing traffic in this blood-splattered car with a gun in his possession.

Of course, the fact that Valerie was left alive does indicate an inexperienced gunman rather than an assassin - although it seems she had extraordinary determination to survive.

[Derrick]

...The killer had to be prepared to use the gun again. He had a long journey ahead of him in his victims’ car. What if it had broken down or run out of fuel and someone had seen blood inside, or been alerted by the police to look out for the car? Also, the fact that he left his only remaining witness alive would indicate panic and inexperience far more than a calculated crime by a gunman who knew what he was doing...

Hi Caz

I have emboldened two phrases.

The first has been answered by Julie Limehouse. Who knew his final destination. I wouldn't have. Would you?

The second is not a fact as far as the gunman was concerned. He left the scene certain that the girl was dead. The fact that he couldn't drive should be the overriding clue to the gunman.

Viz Drayton and Lee who were driven off of the road by the bastard.

Del

[NickB]

S) Can you say now with certainty which of the two days it was it happened, the Monday or he Tuesday?
D) The Monday.

Exactly. She testified she was certain it was the Monday

Mrs D was shown a photo that she had signed.
S) Do you see anyone in court that looks like that man?
D) Yes. [nodding towards Hanratty in the dock]

She could easily be confusing identifying Hanratty as the visitor and the person on the photo in front of her. What did she say when asked how certain she was of that?

[Derrick]

Exactly. She testified she was certain it was the Monday



She could easily be confusing identifying Hanratty as the visitor and the person on the photo in front of her. What did she say when asked how certain she was of that?

You could also have picked the issue of timing.

But you didn't.

Why?

Del

[NickB]

Because I know that you would cite Linda Walton who, as Foot elegantly put it, 'extended' the time!

I do think it was clever of Sherrard to produce a photo of Hanratty, ask Mrs D to examine it and at that point ask her to make the identification. According to the Glasgow Herald he was even standing up at the time.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
I was not taking this lightly, just using Valerie Storie's attitude...
She says quite openly, she initially made a mistake...she then insists that she recognised Hanratty the first moment she saw him, and she wanted him to suffer that is why she took 20 minutes to finally say ''Him''.
She has remained adamant , and confident beyond doubt. and her concious is clear. she was there , no one else. and she says, he knew she knew, and the game was up...
Sorry I am appearing to simplify this , but James Hanratty was the killer.
Regards Richard.

[Limehouse]

By the way folks, I'm really impressed with the quality of the current debate and the level of civility maintained since the thread was resurrected. Well done and thanks also the Sherlock Houses, who has posted that picture of Louise Anderson's shop and the two articles.

I do not get onto the boards as much as I used to but I am really impressed with all the new posters (and it's good to engage with the old-timers too!). Keep it up folks!

Also - there's an interesting looking documentary on ITV tonight (Tuesday 12 August) at 9pm about the last few executions that took place in the UK. It's to mark the 50th anniversary of the execution of Evans and Glynn. Also to be mentioned are Derek Bentley, Timothy Evans and possibly Ruth Ellis. Not too sure if it's a one-off

[Sherlock Houses]

Because I know that you would cite Linda Walton who, as Foot elegantly put it, 'extended' the time!

I do think it was clever of Sherrard to produce a photo of Hanratty, ask Mrs D to examine it and at that point ask her to make the identification. According to the Glasgow Herald he was even standing up at the time.

He was only being as cute as the prosecuting counsel had been earlier on in the trial. And not half as clever as Acott had been a couple of months beforehand in not revealing to Sherrard the existence of a very important corroborating witness [to Hanratty's sweetshop alibi].

For the benefit of any looker-in on this forum not familiar with the Google Newspaper Archive website, below is the Glasgow Herald article in it's entirety.

[Graham]

The "Sweet Shop" Alibi

Hi all,

if I may, can I just re-cap on one or two points concerning this?

1] Acott said, if he is to be believed, that James Hanratty didn't mention the sweetshop in interviews immediately after his arrest on 11 October; he did tell Acott about coming to Liverpool to fence some stuff. From what I can make out, Hanratty didn't mention the sweetshop to Acott but only to his defence counsel, who notified Acott who in turn on 16th October asked Liverpool CID to follow up.

2] If Hanratty was truthful about trying to find the man Aspinall (the fence) who lived in Tarleton Avenue or a road sounding similar to that name, all he had to do when he left Lime Street Station was to ask a taxi-driver. Cabs were his favoured mode of transport, at least when he was flush.

3] At that time there were 29 sweetshops along Scotland Road. Hanratty said that the one he visited was opposite a cinema. The photo in Foot's book shows that there is only what appears to be a fenced-off demolition-site opposite the shop in which Mrs Dunwoody worked. OK, maybe there had been a cinema there which had been demolished between Hanratty's claimed visit and the date of the photo. (Steve, who used to post on the pre-crash thread, visited the scene - the sweetshop had gone, and he said there was no indication of what might have been opposite it in August 1961). However, it seems that nobody actually bothered to check Hanratty's claim about the cinema - neither Woffinden nor Foot mention it. I suppose it would be possible to find out the disposition in 1961 of cinemas along Scotland Road, and ascertain if there really was one opposite the sweetshop at No 408.

4] DC Pugh, who interviewed sweetshop staff along Scotland Road, made an absolutely fatal error in showing people - Mrs Dunwoodie included - just one photograph, that of James Hanratty. (The same happened with Grace Jones in Rhyl). This alone should really undermine Mrs Dunwoodie's subsequent evidence, but the defence were desperate.

5] Irrespective of her confusion about whether it was Monday or Tuesday that the man came in and asked for directions, Mrs Dunwoodie said that the man entered the shop at just after 4.00pm, as the evening papers arrived at that time and had just been delivered. Hanratty said he caught the 10.35am train from London, which would arrive at Lime Street at 3.25pm. He said that before leaving the station he went to freshen up, and then to the buffet for a cup of tea. He then handed his case to the left-luggage office and, according to his own timing, left the station at 5.00pm. (Interestingly, Hanratty's defence claimed that he'd caught the 12.15pm train from London, which arrived at Liverpool at 4.45pm. Either way, Hanratty could not have been at the sweetshop around the time of the newspaper delivery, as Mrs Dunwoodie claimed).

6] Mrs Dunwoodie said the man had an accent she found difficult to understand, and thought he was Scots or Welsh, whereas James Hanratty spoke with what was then considered to be a normal working-class London accent.

7] Mrs Dunwoodie was not interviewed until 2 months after the event - who can accurately recall a fleeting encounter with someone so long afterwards?

8] Mrs Dunwoodie said she was serving another customer when the man came in, and said she did not, as Hanratty claimed, go with him to the door to show him where a bus-stop was located.

The above aren't the only areas of conflicting testimony in the Sweetshop Alibi, but will do for now!

Graham

[Derrick]

...1] Acott said, if he is to be believed, that James Hanratty didn't mention the sweetshop in interviews immediately after his arrest on 11 October; he did tell Acott about coming to Liverpool to fence some stuff. From what I can make out, Hanratty didn't mention the sweetshop to Acott but only to his defence counsel, who notified Acott who in turn on 16th October asked Liverpool CID to follow up...

Acott said that Hanratty didn't mention the 3 men in Liverpool until the 7th October when Hanratty rang him from Liverpool. But that is nonsense as Hanratty rang Barry Harding at the Daily Mirror the day before and before he even spoke to Acott and mentioned the 3 men. Harding printed this in the following days paper. So right from the beginning Acott's evidence is in doubt.

2] If Hanratty was truthful about trying to find the man Aspinall (the fence) who lived in Tarleton Avenue or a road sounding similar to that name, all he had to do when he left Lime Street Station was to ask a taxi-driver. Cabs were his favoured mode of transport, at least when he was flush.

As I believe, from what Hanratty said, he only had about a tenner on him. He was therefore not exactly flush.

3] At that time there were 29 sweetshops along Scotland Road. Hanratty said that the one he visited was opposite a cinema. The photo in Foot's book shows that there is only what appears to be a fenced-off demolition-site opposite the shop in which Mrs Dunwoody worked. OK, maybe there had been a cinema there which had been demolished between Hanratty's claimed visit and the date of the photo. (Steve, who used to post on the pre-crash thread, visited the scene - the sweetshop had gone, and he said there was no indication of what might have been opposite it in August 1961). However, it seems that nobody actually bothered to check Hanratty's claim about the cinema - neither Woffinden nor Foot mention it. I suppose it would be possible to find out the disposition in 1961 of cinemas along Scotland Road, and ascertain if there really was one opposite the sweetshop at No 408.

Mrs Dinwoodie testified that the man in question was Hanratty and corroborated the fact that he asked for those particular roads. I don't see what the position of a cinema has to do with it, unless there were more than one Hanratty look and sound alike's in the Scotland Road that afternoon all after the same place(s) and the police found the wrong shop.

4] DC Pugh, who interviewed sweetshop staff along Scotland Road, made an absolutely fatal error in showing people - Mrs Dunwoodie included - just one photograph, that of James Hanratty. (The same happened with Grace Jones in Rhyl). This alone should really undermine Mrs Dunwoodie's subsequent evidence, but the defence were desperate.

Why should the police get away with contaminating evidence and deprive the defence of their key witnesses? That, I would have thought is not in the interests of justice.

5] Irrespective of her confusion about whether it was Monday or Tuesday that the man came in and asked for directions, Mrs Dunwoodie said that the man entered the shop at just after 4.00pm, as the evening papers arrived at that time and had just been delivered. Hanratty said he caught the 10.35am train from London, which would arrive at Lime Street at 3.25pm. He said that before leaving the station he went to freshen up, and then to the buffet for a cup of tea. He then handed his case to the left-luggage office and, according to his own timing, left the station at 5.00pm. (Interestingly, Hanratty's defence claimed that he'd caught the 12.15pm train from London, which arrived at Liverpool at 4.45pm. Either way, Hanratty could not have been at the sweetshop around the time of the newspaper delivery, as Mrs Dunwoodie claimed).

See my answer to point 7.

6] Mrs Dunwoodie said the man had an accent she found difficult to understand, and thought he was Scots or Welsh, whereas James Hanratty spoke with what was then considered to be a normal working-class London accent.

Perhaps Mrs Dinwoodie hadn't had much experience of Cockney accents, who knows. I don't see this as much of a point. The man, to Mrs Dinwoodie was certainly not a local. Are we to demand of Mrs Dinwoodie that she should be an expert on dialects. I don't remember her being asked to be so at the trial. I don't see were this leads. She picked out his face. It is easy to change one's voice, the face...well you know what I am getting at don't you?

7] Mrs Dunwoodie was not interviewed until 2 months after the event - who can accurately recall a fleeting encounter with someone so long afterwards?

Well, now we are getting at the crux of the case. Your point 5 needs to be considered in the context of your point 7. Your point 7 (above) must apply to everyone, Dinwoodie, Hanratty and everyone else. No?

8] Mrs Dunwoodie said she was serving another customer when the man came in, and said she did not, as Hanratty claimed, go with him to the door to show him where a bus-stop was located.

So how could she have been completely sure of the time or when the evening papers were actually delivered, when she was obviously busy with customers. She could have been a clock watcher but I doubt it. She testified to the time when the man came as being between 4:15 and 4:30. But, as you have said in your point 7, how could someone "accurately recall a fleeting encounter with someone so long afterwards?"

Hi Graham
I await more when you can think of it.
Del

[Spitfire]

Hi all,

if I may, can I just re-cap on one or two points concerning this?



3] At that time there were 29 sweetshops along Scotland Road. Hanratty said that the one he visited was opposite a cinema. The photo in Foot's book shows that there is only what appears to be a fenced-off demolition-site opposite the shop in which Mrs Dunwoody worked. OK, maybe there had been a cinema there which had been demolished between Hanratty's claimed visit and the date of the photo. (Steve, who used to post on the pre-crash thread, visited the scene - the sweetshop had gone, and he said there was no indication of what might have been opposite it in August 1961). However, it seems that nobody actually bothered to check Hanratty's claim about the cinema - neither Woffinden nor Foot mention it. I suppose it would be possible to find out the disposition in 1961 of cinemas along Scotland Road, and ascertain if there really was one opposite the sweetshop at No 408.

I cannot believe that Paul Foot when researching his material for his book would not have ascertained whether or not there was a cinema opposite 408 Scotland Road. His silence on the subject would suggest that he was unable to write that there was such a place of entertainment opposite Mrs Dinwoodie's shop.

I have done some research on the net and this site here has details of the 10 'movie theaters (sic)' which are extant and 60 which are no longer with us.

There were two on the Scotland Road,

The Derby at 322 Scotland Road, Liverpool, L5 5AE here
which closed in 1960;

and

The Electric Theatre at 224-228 Scotland Road, Liverpool, L5
here which closed in 1921.


I am not sure how exhaustive this site is and there may be other cinemas which have been omitted.

[Graham]

Derrick,

perhaps you could read my post a little more carefully, and then think again regarding your comments.

I await more when you can think of it.

Please try not to be so bloody insulting, and then we may take your posts a little more seriously.

Graham

[Graham]

Hi Spitfire,

thanks for your comment. I think it is important to bear in mind what Hanratty said about the cinema, before we can establish once and for all if he really meant the sweet-shop at 408 Scotland Road or, as is more likely, he was making up the whole episode.

Paul Foot and Bob Woffinden do not mention the cinema - only Hanratty does.
The lack of evidence that there was a cinema opposite the shop merely undermines the possibility that the sweetshop Hanratty speaks about, and the one that Mrs Dunwoodie worked in, was the one at No 408.

Regards,

Graham

[NickB]

I believe Hanratty thought the cinema was called The Regal.

I wonder why he didn't say it was a corner shop. That would appear to be an obvious way of helping to identify it.

Don't know if this has been done before, but this is my attempt at comparing the two accounts of the incident ...

Dinwoodie
He asks for “Tarleton Road”.
She replies: “I do not know Tarleton Road, only Tarleton Street.”
He replies: “No, Road.”
Then several other customers come into the shop.
She says: “Perhaps they could help” and goes on serving, not noticing him go out.

Hanratty
He asks for “Carlton Avenue or Tarleton Avenue”.
He also asks for “Talbot Road” and then “Carlton Road”. (not clear whether this is at the counter or door)
She replies: “There is no Carlton Road around here”.
She goes with him to the door and shows him the bus stop for the bus to Carlton Road.
She says: “This is Bank Hall, and you have to get on a bus and go into town.”