A6 murder and the 1967 Nimmo Inquiry

[Natalie Severn]

Jen,
Can I ask you why you keep stating Trower and Skillett were "independent,respectable,law abiding witnesses?
I hope you are not inferring that Mrs Dinwoody was not an independent ,law abiding,respectable citizen?
Or that Mrs Margaret Walker,Mrs Margaret Davies,Mrs Betty Davies, Mr Noel Davies and Mrs Ivy Vincent were not?
Mrs Betty Davies is still alive and I can assure you is certainly a very respectable person .She also happens to be a long time friend of another very respectable person I know who works for Denbighshire County Council.She is adamant that the young man in the dark suit who knocked on her door late on the evening of 22nd August was the same man who Margaret Walker saw and Ivy Vincent saw.Moreover her mother in law and husband have corroborated her statement.That man was James Hanratty.
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Jen,
Can I ask you why you keep stating Trower and Skillett were "independent,respectable,law abiding witnesses?
I hope you are not inferring that Mrs Dinwoody was not an independent ,law abiding,respectable citizen?
Or that Mrs Margaret Walker,Mrs Margaret Davies,Mrs Betty Davies, Mr Noel Davies and Mrs Ivy Vincent were not?
Mrs Betty Davies is still alive and I can assure you is certainly a very respectable person .She also happens to be a long time friend of another very respectable person I know who works for Denbighshire County Council.She is adamant that the young man in the dark suit who knocked on her door late on the evening of 22nd August was the same man who Margaret Walker saw and Ivy Vincent saw.Moreover her mother in law and husband have corroborated her statement.That man was James Hanratty.
Norma

I want to add here that it seems there are certainly double standards operating over this affair.
What about the prosecution witnesses,the two longterm gangsters detested even by their fellow prison mates? viz Roy William Langdale and William George Richard Nudds alias Baker,Bartlett Beaumont, Glickberg Itter,Knight?

[babybird67]

I want to add here that it seems there are certainly double standards operating over this affair.
What about the prosecution witnesses,the two longterm gangsters detested even by their fellow prison mates? viz Roy William Langdale and William George Richard Nudds alias Baker,Bartlett Beaumont, Glickberg Itter,Knight?

Ermm what double standards are you talking about? I haven't commented on ANY of the other witnesses you have referred to, regarding their integrity or otherwise. Where i have spoke about Langdale and Nudds i have applied the same standards to their testimony as i do to Hanratty's...that they are criminals and not to be trusted.

Don't accuse me of double standards Norma. I apply mine fairly and stringently.

[babybird67]

Jen,
Can I ask you why you keep stating Trower and Skillett were "independent,respectable,law abiding witnesses?

Because they were. They were independent, respectable, and law abiding.

I hope you are not inferring that Mrs Dinwoody was not an independent ,law abiding,respectable citizen?

I am certainly not! Any inferences you are making are completely created from your own imagination. Kindly quote from any post in which i have even come near to making such a suggestion about Mrs Dinwoodie or retract what you have said.

Or that Mrs Margaret Walker,Mrs Margaret Davies,Mrs Betty Davies, Mr Noel Davies and Mrs Ivy Vincent were not?

See above. I haven't even mentioned these witnesses!

Mrs Betty Davies is still alive and I can assure you is certainly a very respectable person .She also happens to be a long time friend of another very respectable person I know who works for Denbighshire County Council.She is adamant that the young man in the dark suit who knocked on her door late on the evening of 22nd August was the same man who Margaret Walker saw and Ivy Vincent saw.Moreover her mother in law and husband have corroborated her statement.That man was James Hanratty.
Norma

This man being the same man the other witnesses saw does not make that man James Hanratty. Go back to Woffinden and Foot and find me ONE Rhyl witness statement that says 'i can positively identify that man as James Hanratty.' You won't find one. The only person who was 'certain' was Mrs Jones, and i believe hers was an honest mistake. This is because there is no way Hanratty could have been there. The room he said he stayed in had another occupant. The room Mrs Jones said she let to the man she believed to be Hanratty differed in all essential details to where Hanratty said he had stayed. Add to that the fact that the Rhyl witnesses all beleived they had seen this man at a time when HANRATTY himself says he wasn't in Rhyl! Why do you think none of these witnesses could have been called to the trial?

[Natalie Severn]

Because they were. They were independent, respectable, and law abiding.

OMG But nobody had ever said they were not to my knowledge!

I am certainly not! Any inferences you are making are completely created from your own imagination. Kindly quote from any post in which i have even come near to making such a suggestion about Mrs Dinwoodie or retract what you have said.

Oh for goodness sake!

[Natalie Severn]

Add to that the fact that the Rhyl witnesses all beleived they had seen this man at a time when HANRATTY himself says he wasn't in Rhyl! Why do you think none of these witnesses could have been called to the trial?

You make such a sweeping statement here.Which Rhyl witnesses are we discussing now?
Mrs Walker,Mrs Vincent and Mrs Betty Davies and her mother in law,Mrs Margaret Davies all speak about the same young man in the dark suit looking for a B&B late on the Tuesday evening of 22nd August 1961.Exactly when Hanratty said he was knocking on doors asking if there was a vacancy.Moreover they corroborate each other.
Even before the trial had ended,the suggestion that Hanratty was in Rhyl had provoked a spontaneous reaction among several Rhyl citizens.
Mrs Walker went to the police station on Wednesday 8th February 1962 just days before the trial was due to end.Her husband had begged her not to get involved but she went and made a statement.Mr Trevor Dutton made a telephone call to Abergele police .At least six other people made voluntary statements to the Rhyl police during the next few days which had relevance to Hanratty"s claims of an alibi.However,Mr Gillbanks was away at the trial in Bedford.His assistant ,Mr Frank Evans managed to get round to see many of these witnesses, including Mrs Walker but for one reason or another,mainly because the trial had only a few days to run,he did not influence the defence to call them at trial.

[Derrick]

Because they were. They were independent, respectable, and law abiding.

You are making a statement of fact from pure speculation when no one (including you) knows anything at all about these 2 men.

[Victor]

You are making a statement of fact from pure speculation when no one (including you) knows anything at all about these 2 men.

Yes, but it's reasonable to state that as a fact without evidence to the contary - innocent until proven guilty after all.

KR,
Vic

[Derrick]

Yes, but it's reasonable to state that as a fact without evidence to the contary - innocent until proven guilty after all.

No it isn't.

I could not say that the people who live 4 doors down from me are independent, respectable and law abiding.

Why?

Because I don't know anything about them bar seeing them come in and out of their house.

They could very well be for all I know, yet, on the other hand, they could be running a knocking shop. Who knows? If they were to interfere in my life then I would start asking questions.

The trial performances of both Skillet and Trower were poor and unconvincing to say the least.

Even the appeal judges seemed to accept that the Redbridge evidence was tainted by what they called the "high water mark of non-disclosure".

Frankly that's all we know about them.

I hope that that clarifies my point.

Derrick

[Limehouse]

Indeed Derrick - and respectable and law abiding though they may have been - their evidence was open to question - even by the notes that Acott had in his own book concerning the journey taken by the murder car after the events of that night - as this extract shows:

NARRATOR: Detective Superintendent Acott had withheld from the court vital witness sightings of the murder car and other pieces of evidence, including Michael Gregsten's car log book where Gregsten had meticulously recorded his mileage driven prior to the night of the murder. With this information Acott calculated in his own notebook Gregsten's car had travelled over 200 miles before it was abandoned, a fact supported by other undisclosed sightings of the car in different parts of the country and all suggesting a longer journey for the car than Acott proposed to the court. Had the court known about Gregsten's log book and the conflicting sightings of the car it would have cast doubt on the two witnesses's claim to have seen Hanratty driving the car near the Ilford side street at seven in the morning.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/a6murdertrans.shtml

[babybird67]

Lol!

they were respectable, law abiding and independent. If you wish to state the contrary kindly provide evidence. Hanratty groupies need to apply their standards to the man themselves. It makes me sick reading cr@p about whether he liked country music or Sinatra as if this speculation is innocent and justified. Go and find living killers on death row and pour out your poison adulation to the living rather than wasting it on the deserving dead!

[Limehouse]

they were respectable, law abiding and independent. If you wish to state the contrary kindly provide evidence. Hanratty groupies need to apply their standards to the man themselves. It makes me sick reading cr@p about whether he liked country music or Sinatra as if this speculation is innocent and justified. Go and find living killers on death row and pour out your poison adulation to the living rather than wasting it on the deserving dead!

The music debate was on a completely different thread. That thread was started to examine the social and political landscape within which the events that night happened. You cannot divorce events from their social circumstances. Additionally - the thread was intended to provide an escape from the stresses sometimes evoked by other A6 threads.

As you said to a previous poster - if you don't like it - don't read it.

I have repeatedly stated that I do not hold Hanratty in hgh esteem. I have repeatedly explained why I have doubts about his guilt. Others who doubt Hanratty's innocence have done the same. Some of the most respected and intelligent people in this land (living and dead) hold/held the same or a similar view. Resort to abuse if you wish - it appears to be the parting shot of many members of your camp.

[jimarilyn]

The man she spoke to bought cigarettes from her...why would Hanratty, a non smoker, buy cigarettes?

This is a blatant lie. Hanratty did not buy cigarettes from Mrs Dinwoodie. Stop trying to mislead posters.

[NickB]

From Olive Dinwoodie's 17-Oct statement:

"It was definitely the Monday because I was alone on the Tuesday. My grand-daughter was only with me on the Monday."

Hanratty was in London on the Monday.

[Graham]

Hi Julie,

Resort to abuse if you wish - it appears to be the parting shot of many members of your camp.

Hmmm - suggest you take a look at Post 43 on this thread.

Graham