The 1961 Landscape

[GUT]

RIP Cilla White. [aka Black].

[moste]

locale coincidence

Thought I would post this on this thread.
This is the Vauxhall district of Liverpool, these derelict properties, and a handful of others, are all that is left of the once thriving Scotland road terraced slums of the Victorian era,
The end property,(next to man in white coat) is 362 Scotland road, and an almost identical row just beyond the side road which is Kew street,( behind the steel, railed off area)now reduced to rubble, number 380 was the home of the late Cilla Black A little further along across another side street, approx. where the white van is, was 408 Scotland road. the premises of Mr, David Cowley, Mrs. Dinwoodie's employer.
Anyone musing over time availability, for Hanratty with a Rhyl coach to catch etc. This spot is about 5 bus stops in a straight line more or less from Lime street station in the centre of Liverpool, so it wasn't much of an excursion to check in with a random sweet shop, in this area of Scotland road and be back in the town in say 1/2 an hour or so.
The 1961 landscape for this pretty depressed area apart from the 29 sweet shops, and a pub on nearly every street corner, only a short distance to the east from Scotland road was the Liverpool docks, and for the likes of Cilla's Dad, the main employer of the area.

[Sherlock Houses]

Anyone musing over time availability, for Hanratty with a Rhyl coach to catch etc. This spot is about 5 bus stops in a straight line more or less from Lime street station in the centre of Liverpool, so it wasn't much of an excursion to check in with a random sweet shop, in this area of Scotland road and be back in the town in say 1/2 an hour or so.
The 1961 landscape for this pretty depressed area apart from the 29 sweet shops, and a pub on nearly every street corner, only a short distance to the east from Scotland road was the Liverpool docks, and for the likes of Cilla's Dad, the main employer of the area.

You are quite correct Moste, David Cowley's sweetshop was practically in a straight line from Lime Street Station. The approximate distance between the two points is 1.2 miles. I know from personal experience. I have travelled along Scotland Road many times over the years and know the Liverpool area very well [ I have two aunts who still live there].

James Hanratty told his defence team that upon leaving that sweetshop he walked back into town. It would have taken the healthy 24 year-old Hanratty 20 minutes [maybe a little less] to return to Lime Street Station.

Hanratty's original estimate of the time he arrived at Lime Street Station from Euston Station that Tuesday afternoon was 3.30 pm. For some reason this was subsequently changed to 4.30pm at the trial. There was a 10.35 am. train from Euston that Tuesday which arrived at Lime Street at 3.25pm. This tallies very closely with Hanratty's original statement. I believe that this was the train he took that day. Even if I'm mistaken and he arrived at around 4.30 pm. that still gives him ample time to deposit his luggage, brush-up and have a quick cup of tea in the buffet bar before boarding the bus to Mr Cowley's sweetshop on Scotland Road which was just a 5 minute bus ride away.

He was only in the sweetshop for a minute or two so it's reasonable to assume that he would have left there at about 5.10 pm [at the latest]. He would then have reached Lime Street Station about 5.30 pm. Hanratty then went into Lyons cafe at 51 Lime Street, just a few yards around the corner from the station, for a quick bite to eat and then crossed over the road to Reynolds Billiard Hall less than 200 yards away where he had the encounter with Mr Kempt. He then crossed over the road again to the Station to pick up his left luggage and catch the 6.00 pm double-decker bus to Rhyl from Skelhorne Street, literally yards away from Lime Street Station.

[Sherlock Houses]

Aerial view of Lime Street Station 1991

He was only in the sweetshop for a minute or two so it's reasonable to assume that he would have left there at about 5.10 pm [at the latest]. He would then have reached Lime Street Station about 5.30 pm. Hanratty then went into Lyons cafe at 51 Lime Street, just a few yards around the corner from the station, for a quick bite to eat and then crossed over the road to Reynolds Billiard Hall less than 200 yards away where he had the encounter with Mr Kempt. He then crossed over the road again to the Station to pick up his left luggage and catch the 6.00 pm double-decker bus to Rhyl from Skelhorne Street, literally yards away from Lime Street Station.

To give posters and non-posters alike some idea of the locale I have attached an aerial view photograph taken apparently in 1991.

Re. the different coloured arrows I have marked on the photo.....[reading from bottom of photo upwards]

Red arrow indicates Lime Street. The pub [Crown Hotel] directly above this arrow is 43 Lime Street. A few doors to the right would have been where Lyons Café was then situated [51 Lime Street]. It has long since gone.

Black arrow shows Skelhorne Street.

Green arrow shows where bus station was located.

Blue arrow shows St Andrews Gardens which was popularly known as the Bullring.

[Sherlock Houses]

Reynolds Billiard Hall would have been slightly south-west from where red arrow is.

[moste]

Hanratty was asking for what he thought was Tarleton street or something close to that, at Cowley's newsagents. In behind where 408 Scotland road was is Taliesin street. lots of rubble around and small engineering type buildings. I think its possible Jimmy was very close to the address he was searching for. Taliesin doesn't come all the way through to Scotland road so its possible people he was asking couldn't help, but it is actually only a couple of hundred yards away.

[moste]

Taliesin,not tarleton?

Red spot marks Approx.408 Scotland road.

[Sherlock Houses]

Scotland Road map showing location of sweetshop

The attached map showing the location of David Cowley's sweetshop also includes Taylor Street to the east which is even nearer than Taliesin Street.
I've often wondered, given Hanratty's learning difficulties, if either of these two streets may have equated to either Talbot or Tarleton Street respectively and that Hanratty had mis-remembered slightly the name of Aspinall's road.

Just over a mile away [to the south-east of the sweetshop] was a Carlton Street. Food for thought perhaps.

[NickB]

I thought the train times from London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street were:
dep 10.20 am - arr 2.22 pm
dep 10.35 am - arr 3.25 pm
dep 12.15 pm - arr 4.45 pm

He arrived early for his train and did many things (drank a coffee and then a tea, bought various things, read magazines, chatted with a porter) to pass the time.

It sounds like he arrived more than 15 minutes before the train’s departure. So why would he choose the 10.35?

[Sherlock Houses]

Sweetshop/Traffic Island ...Then and now

Attached are comparison photos of the locale of David Cowley's sweetshop.
The three illuminated [yellow white and blue] traffic bollards in the foreground of the 2015 Google Earth image are in the same place as the older ones in 1962 were.

The small black rectangle in the 2015 image approximates to where the long gone sweetshop stood back in the early 60's.

[Sherlock Houses]

I thought the train times from London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street were:
dep 10.20 am - arr 2.22 pm
dep 10.35 am - arr 3.25 pm
dep 12.15 pm - arr 4.45 pm

He arrived early for his train and did many things (drank a coffee and then a tea, bought various things, read magazines, chatted with a porter) to pass the time.

It sounds like he arrived more than 15 minutes before the train’s departure. So why would he choose the 10.35?

Hanratty said he left the Vienna around 9.00 am.
Nudds said he left around 8.30 am.
I don't know whose estimate is nearer the mark so if we split the difference and go for 8.45 am then it seems very reasonable to suppose the following :-

Hanratty said he walked to Paddington Station upon leaving the Vienna which is about a mile and a half away. Unless he stopped for instance at Louise Anderson's home in Sussex Gardens on the way he would have arrived at that station around 9.10 am.
Realising his mistake [Euston was the correct station for Liverpool] he said he jumped a taxi to Euston which was just over 2 miles away. If he caught a taxi straight away he would have arrived at Euston by 9.20 am.
He would then have about an hour to wait for the next train [the 10.20] to Liverpool.

Who knows, he could well have taken that 10.20 am train which arrived at Lime Street around 2.22 pm . This would have given him even more time to do [at a more leisurely pace] the things he said he did before the bus to Rhyl left.

[moste]

Theatre opposite sweet shop?

Checking old Liverpool maps, this time from 1901 (site is called A to Z Liverpool) shows all side street on the east side of Scotland road come all the way through to Scotty rd. including, Kew St. Bostock St. Taliesin St. and Taylor St. The triangular patch of grass where the underground toilets are situated across from Cowleys shop, was in fact the location of The Rotunda Theatre as mentioned by Hanratty .Note spot marked with orange.

[moste]

Delete previous entry

The research discovering a cinema/theatre existing on the site of the intersection at Stanley and Scotland roads, is a none starter. The Rotunda Theatre built in 1860,was bombed to the ground in 1940.

[Semper_Eadem]

The only thing really on the American Landscape in 1961 was the Twist and The Cuban Missile Crisis. plus Civil Rights. The Hanratty Case really wasn't covered outside the Big Cities over here in the US from what my Mom remembers. She turned 16 in August of 1961 so she was sort of old enough to be taking an interest in her surroundings and what was happening around her but she doesn't remember this Case at all. Of course she also grew up in the bible belt and while she was a budding Artist and Modernist she certainly wasn't interested in any Criminal Cases.

My Dad who was still 15 would of been but sadly he passed in 2010, so I don't think he heard of it either but he might of later on as he used to watch Crime Case Documentaries all the time. That is where I got interested in True Crime.

Still, I never heard of this case before joining this forum. I had to bone up on it on YouTube. However, I do love this topic, alas I can't contribute much of anything as I wasn't born until 1975...

I do love 1950's and 60's Doo-Wop though and bluesy rock. Fav songs were Smoke Gets In Your Eyes and The Exodus sound track album among others. I've have to dig though my albums, I do got a lot of 50's and 60's stuff I snagged from my Great Aunt when she passed.. Nothing beats vinyl for sound.

[Sherlock Houses]

The only thing really on the American Landscape in 1961 was the Twist and The Cuban Missile Crisis. plus Civil Rights. The Hanratty Case really wasn't covered outside the Big Cities over here in the US from what my Mom remembers. She turned 16 in August of 1961 so she was sort of old enough to be taking an interest in her surroundings and what was happening around her but she doesn't remember this Case at all. Of course she also grew up in the bible belt and while she was a budding Artist and Modernist she certainly wasn't interested in any Criminal Cases.

My Dad who was still 15 would of been but sadly he passed in 2010, so I don't think he heard of it either but he might of later on as he used to watch Crime Case Documentaries all the time. That is where I got interested in True Crime.

Still, I never heard of this case before joining this forum. I had to bone up on it on YouTube. However, I do love this topic, alas I can't contribute much of anything as I wasn't born until 1975...

I do love 1950's and 60's Doo-Wop though and bluesy rock. Fav songs were Smoke Gets In Your Eyes and The Exodus sound track album among others. I've have to dig though my albums, I do got a lot of 50's and 60's stuff I snagged from my Great Aunt when she passed.. Nothing beats vinyl for sound.

Welcome to the A6 Forum and it's diverse threads Semper_ Eadem, it's refreshing to have a new poster contributing his/her thoughts. It is arguably the most intriguing murder case in British 20th century history with it's numerous and mysterious complexities and anomalies.

I love the theme from Exodus. It is a very powerful and evocative piece of music and was in the UK music charts during the spring and early summer of 1961. 1961 was a year abundant with great music.

Here are those two great tunes you mention.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM6wKMH-JRM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2di83WAOhU