The 1961 Landscape

[Spitfire]

Read all about it here.

[Graham]

Getting back to the topic, the 1960-61 football season saw the introduction of the Football League Cup.

The final was a two legged affair between Rotherham United and Aston Villa. The first leg took place on 22 August 1961,the night of the abduction, with Rotherham winning that match 2-0. The second leg at Villa Park saw the Villa claim the cup 3-2 on aggregate.

I believe that both the Millers and the Villa still play association football at some level or other.

I still cling to the old fiction that I remain a Villa supporter, except that I've not set foot inside Villa Park since 1981. I do recall that final, as I went to the leg at Villa Park, but couldn't tell you scorers or anything else. They tell me that Villa are in the Premiership..................................

Graham

[Spitfire]

Getting back to the topic, the 1960-61 football season saw the introduction of the Football League Cup.

The final was a two legged affair between Rotherham United and Aston Villa. The first leg took place on 22 August 1961,the night of the abduction, with Rotherham winning that match 2-0. The second leg at Villa Park saw the Villa claim the cup 3-2 on aggregate.

I believe that both the Millers and the Villa still play association football at some level or other.

[Spitfire]

What if the stick-up man shot the hit-man by mistake? If it had been pitch dark it is a possible scenario.

[Graham]

Dawn breaks in Bedfordshire at just before 6 am. on Aug 23rd. She was discovered at approx. 6 45 am, she had supposedly been lying there about 3 hours , I make that 3 45 am. pitch dark. even if it was a starry night with a moon, being up against the maulden woods trees, no street lighting, that would be fairly pitch.

I hear what you say, but dawn doesn't break all at once....many is the time before I retired that I left home between about 3.30am and 5.00am during the summer months, and it certainly wasn't pitch dark at that time of early morning. Although to be fair to you where I live there is constant light-pollution from various sources. But there must have been sufficient light for Hanratty to see where to point his gun, and he did hit his target. Nobody, not even a cat, can see in pitch darkness.

Graham

[moste]

Dawn breaks in Bedfordshire at just before 6 am. on Aug 23rd. She was discovered at approx. 6 45 am, she had supposedly been lying there about 3 hours , I make that 3 45 am. pitch dark. even if it was a starry night with a moon, being up against the maulden woods trees, no street lighting, that would be fairly pitch.

[Spitfire]

I'm firmly in the camp that believes JH had absolutely nothing to do with this. The more time that goes by, and the more this thing is dug into, its obvious there is much more to this than a small time house breaker\car thief, going ape with his new gun, someone who had never shown any inclination to violence.
The double tap method didn't need all the explaining the American chap gave us. A single shot to the head can result in a delayed action situation where the victim doesn't die immediately, two rapid shots remove this eventuality, exactly as performed .
I think deadmans hill layby was a rendezvous' point, hence the quote by stick up man on more than one occasion "there's plenty of time yet!"The hit man I believe would only have been at the scene 1 or 2 minutes tops. leaving the weapon, the car, the woman, to the stick up man.

So the gunman who shot Gregsten was the hit-man and it was a different person altogether who shot Storie, namely the stick-up man who had hijacked the couple all those miles away in Dorney Reach.

Surely VS would have noticed another man shooting Gregsten in the Morris Minor and said words to that effect when questioned by the police investigating the crime.

[Graham]

Ps. It was pitch dark.

No it wasn't. At the time Valerie was shot dawn was breaking.

Graham

[Graham]

I'm firmly in the camp that believes JH had absolutely nothing to do with this. The more time that goes by, and the more this thing is dug into, its obvious there is much more to this than a small time house breaker\car thief, going ape with his new gun, someone who had never shown any inclination to violence.
The double tap method didn't need all the explaining the American chap gave us. A single shot to the head can result in a delayed action situation where the victim doesn't die immediately, two rapid shots remove this eventuality, exactly as performed .
I think deadmans hill layby was a rendezvous' point, hence the quote by stick up man on more than one occasion "there's plenty of time yet!"The hit man I believe would only have been at the scene 1 or 2 minutes tops. leaving the weapon, the car, the woman, to the stick up man.

Pure speculation. You'll have to provide something more than this before you're able to convince us hardened JimDidIt-ites that there was anyone else involved in the actual crime. You say that it's "obvious" there's more to this than a small-time housebreaker, etc., etc., but let's here precisely why you think it's "obvious". This has been the major problem with those nice people who think JH was innocent - they have never produced a jot of proof that he was. The debate on these boards has been going on for years and years, and today is but a shadow of what it used to be, yet no-one has ever come up with anything to prove beyond doubt JH's innocence of the A6 Crime.

All the best,

Graham

[moste]

Ps. It was pitch dark.

[moste]

I'm firmly in the camp that believes JH had absolutely nothing to do with this. The more time that goes by, and the more this thing is dug into, its obvious there is much more to this than a small time house breaker\car thief, going ape with his new gun, someone who had never shown any inclination to violence.
The double tap method didn't need all the explaining the American chap gave us. A single shot to the head can result in a delayed action situation where the victim doesn't die immediately, two rapid shots remove this eventuality, exactly as performed .
I think deadmans hill layby was a rendezvous' point, hence the quote by stick up man on more than one occasion "there's plenty of time yet!"The hit man I believe would only have been at the scene 1 or 2 minutes tops. leaving the weapon, the car, the woman, to the stick up man.

[Graham]

Until Mr Moste responds this chap's explanation will have to do. Double tap.

According to Wikipedia the technique was devised/perfected/popularised by British police chiefs in Shanghai in the 1930s Wiki.

I may be doing Mr Moste an injustice, but I anticipate his line of thinking may be that the murderer was a trained marksman with experience of the double tap method of shooting popular in the special forces of the United Kingdom and was therefore unlikely to be Hanratty who had no such training.

However double tap does seem to require two aimed shots with the gunman sighting the target. In the present case the gunman's target was only a matter of inches away from the gun and no sighting would be required. Moreover the trained assassin theory breaks down when one considers the complete pig's ear the gunman made of attempted murder of VS.

I kind of suspected it might be something like that. If Mr Moste is suggesting that the killer was a trained marksman, then I would ask what I always ask when such suggestions are made: what evidence do you have that it wasn't Hanratty, how did he get in on the act, and can you put a name to him?

Frankly I'd have thought that at point-blank range a single shot from the Enfield would have been sufficient. And as you rightly suggest, Spitfire, would a 'trained marksman' fail to have killed Valerie with so many shots at close range, even if it wasn't completely daylight?

Graham

[Spitfire]

Until Mr Moste responds this chap's explanation will have to do. Double tap.

According to Wikipedia the technique was devised/perfected/popularised by British police chiefs in Shanghai in the 1930s Wiki.

I may be doing Mr Moste an injustice, but I anticipate his line of thinking may be that the murderer was a trained marksman with experience of the double tap method of shooting popular in the special forces of the United Kingdom and was therefore unlikely to be Hanratty who had no such training.

However double tap does seem to require two aimed shots with the gunman sighting the target. In the present case the gunman's target was only a matter of inches away from the gun and no sighting would be required. Moreover the trained assassin theory breaks down when one considers the complete pig's ear the gunman made of attempted murder of VS.

[Graham]

The movie "Scandal" portrayed the Man In The Mask as somewhat old and very much overweight, and I remember reading somewhere that this caused some slight consternation in high Tory circles......as though the makers of the film were hinting that they knew the Man's identity. Ernest Marples as far as I recall was a thin, wiry bloke; and for a Tory politician of the time a rather engaging personality.

Gregsten and Storie were both civil servants at the government-sponsored Road Research Laboratory, so I suppose it's possible (but IMHO unlikely) that they had direct contact with politicians. Marples must have visited the place several times, but even so I can't see any direct link between government and the A6 Crime.....but ya never know!

The only possible 'link' I can think of is when the director of the RRL took pains to point out to Gregsten and Storie that they were being very naughty, bringing the RRL into disrepute, and so forth. Did the director do this off his own bat, or was he prompted? I understand 'someone' wrote to him and asked him to administer a sound bollocking to the couple, and warn them of possible repercussions, etc. Valerie Storie more or less told him to get stuffed, and good for her.

In the late 1960's I worked in a lowly capacity for a company engaged in producing parts for Concorde. As this was the government's No 1 pet project at the time, the company was forever getting visits from civil servants, senior and junior, and in one instance from a junior minister, who as to be expected took no notice whatsoever of mere menial riff-raff like me, as he could smell the g&t and smoked salmon laid on in the boardroom.

Even now I miss those days, especially when 'Private Eye' published and was usually damned. You don't get scandals like the Profumo Affair any more, sad to say.

Can Mr Moste enlighten me as to what is the 'double tap' method? Ta.

Graham

[j.kettle1]

Has anyone every given any consideration to there being a connection between "The Profumo affair. and the "James Hanratty affair"?

Hi moste,
I think that the poster "Limehouse" intimated this possibility, but never posted anything concrete.

Thanks

John