Alphon--The A6 "hit man"?

[Natalie Severn]

Still not answering the question, then.

A thread devoted to proving Alphon guilty quoting Gorman [not Sherrard] saying alibis don't have to be proved!!!!

Alphon was in the Vienna when Hanratty was committing the crime - his alibi is a million times better than Hanratty's and you've provided the clinching quote.


Again!

KR,
Vic.

And who ,precisely, gave him this alibi?
Juliana Galves could not have done so because she said she never saw him at any time in the Vienna Hotel until 11.45 am on the day he left ie on 23rd August .
Statement by Juliana Galves of 13th September 1961[ie her second statement which "rectified " her first statement]:

"The only time I saw this man[Alphon] about whom I have been asked by police , was about 11.45 am on the day he left....I did not see Durrant [Alphon] on his arrival .According to the register,he stayed for one night on 22 August"

Nudds made "3 controversial statements" about rooms .
Did he also tamper with the hotel records ?

Se following exchange from trial:

Sherrard: Let me ask you at once,The Glickbergs [Nudds and Florence Snell]had not access to the hotel records,so far asyou know,from 11 September 1961 when they were dismissed[ for theft].....They had no access tothe records,which would have enabled them to tamper with them?

AcottNo

Sherrard They were always from 11 September, in your possession?
Acott Yes [Trial X,26]

Superintendent Acott"s testimony appears to directly contradict a hitherto undisclosed statement by his colleague Det Segt,Kenneth Oxford:
"On 20 September 1961 I went to the Vienna Hotel Sutherland Road,Maida Vale,W9, when Det Supt.Acott interviewed the manageress Mrs Galves.I took possession of the Hotel Diary, the Letting Sheet, sheets from the hotel register and a specimen receipt card.

[Statement of Det Sgt Kenneth Oxford of 28th September 1961.]

Can you deal with this specific inconsistency please Victor.

[Natalie Severn]

Question posed by Michael Sherrard QC in his autobiography ,"Wigs and Wherefores" 2009-page 104.

"Who would have thought",he asks,"that the police would keep "on ice" for 31 years, Valerie Storie"s knickers and the handkerchief that wrapped the gun?"

No "pathetic question" as you put it -but clearly its subtlety is lost on you!

[Natalie Severn]

Victor,

When you make a statement like this you are clearly not being serious:

Loads of extra reliable statements.

Who from gangster Nudds?Who else?
Yes, Juliana says that " according to the hotel record book, Durrant was in room 6 .Not worth a dime for anyone with the remotest knowledge of the fiddling that went on with witness statements!

Now here's you relying on "gangster" statements.

No just "recording" what gangster Nudds said in one of the several contradicted statements!

Having attended a lecture and conversed with Michael Mansfield, I'm absolutely confident of my position here.

Big deal! Was this back in 2002 "ish?

Best
Norma

[Victor]

What nonsense you do talk sometimes.--- you did a whoopsy Vic!---you know you did! Only a someone not paying attention would make a silly mistake like that about the presiding judge in the trial!

Still not answering the question, then.

A thread devoted to proving Alphon guilty quoting Gorman [not Sherrard] saying alibis don't have to be proved!!!!

Alphon was in the Vienna when Hanratty was committing the crime - his alibi is a million times better than Hanratty's and you've provided the clinching quote.


Again!

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

According to which of gangster Nudds"s statements Vic?---haha! He changed them several times

Hi Norma,

"Two out of 3 ain't bad" Get over it.

--one time Alphon is in room 24

One denied statement puts Alphon in room 24. Two (one denied and reaffirmed) don't.

another time Hanratty is in room 24

even Hanratty himself puts him in room 24 Loads of extra reliable statements.

then its Alphon --- in room 24 at lunch hour on the day of the murder

Now I want your evidence for this because it's blatantly false. Juliana Galves and others put Alphon in room 6.

---then in room 6 later on with a note pinned to door 24 for him to know he has been moved to room 6 ?

Now here's you relying on "gangster" statements.

Be careful Vic.Michael Sherrard is a QC and is on record

Having attended a lecture and conversed with Michael Mansfield, I'm absolutely confident of my position here.

"Who would have thought",he asks,"that the police would keep "on ice" for 31 years, Valerie Storie"s knickers and the handkerchief that wrapped the gun?"
Good question---and why would they might one ask?

Pathetic question.

Some facts:
1. The police did not intentional keep the samples.
2. They were not "on ice".
3. It wasn't the entire knickers, or even the major part taken to the trial, it was a small fragment.
4. The hankerchief was found seperately.

Now phrase that question in a coherent, consistant way, and not in a way that'll sell more copies of an intentionally "sexed-up" memoir.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

Yes I spotted that, but it doesn't alter the thrust of my argument and you've not replied to that, only pointed out a minor issue, so are you going to respond to the argument or simply resort to pedantry to obfuscate your position?

KR,
Vic.

What nonsense you do talk sometimes.--- you did a whoopsy Vic!---you know you did! Only a someone not paying attention would make a silly mistake like that about the presiding judge in the trial!

[Natalie Severn]

Alphon was in the Vienna when Hanratty was committing the crime - his alibi is a million times better than Hanratty's and you've provided the clinching quote.

Cheers,
Vic.

According to which of gangster Nudds"s statements Vic?---haha! He changed them several times --one time Alphon is in room 24
another time Hanratty is in room 24 then its Alphon --- in room 24 at lunch hour on the day of the murder---then in room 6 later on with a note pinned to door 24 for him to know he has been moved to room 6 ? This is evidence???--

Be careful Vic.Michael Sherrard is a QC and is on record taking about the "number of shady characters who turned up as witnesses,having suddenly become good citizens,ready to deal with the police in a way hitherto had not been their custom"
"Who would have thought",he asks,"that the police would keep "on ice" for 31 years, Valerie Storie"s knickers and the handkerchief that wrapped the gun?"
Good question---and why would they , might one ask?
Night Vic,
Best Norma

[Victor]

It was Judge Justice Gorman---[not Michael Sherrard] who said "He does not have to prove his alibi etc" .He was desperately trying to get the Bedford jury to understand the case .They were indeed dim---as others have pointed out.

Hi Norma,

Yes I spotted that, but it doesn't alter the thrust of my argument and you've not replied to that, only pointed out a minor issue, so are you going to respond to the argument or simply resort to pedantry to obfuscate your position?

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

Are you serious? A thread devoted to proving Alphon guilty quoting Sherrard saying alibis don't have to be proved!!!!

Alphon was in the Vienna when Hanratty was committing the crime - his alibi is a million times better than Hanratty's and you've provided the clinching quote.

Cheers,
Vic.

Vic,
Please read what I write and not what you want to "think" I write.
It was Judge Justice Gorman---[not Michael Sherrard] who said "He does not have to prove his alibi etc" .He was desperately trying to get the Bedford jury to understand the case .They were indeed dim---as others have pointed out.

[Victor]

Hi Vic

good to see you back

viv

Thanksi Viv,

I never go away, I'm in the process of moving so have to spend time away. Burgess Hill next week - Arrrgh!

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Now you really are talking gobbledegook Victor! Ha Ha!

Hi Norma,

Are you serious? A thread devoted to proving Alphon guilty quoting Sherrard saying alibis don't have to be proved!!!!

Alphon was in the Vienna when Hanratty was committing the crime - his alibi is a million times better than Hanratty's and you've provided the clinching quote.

Cheers,
Vic.

[jimornot?]

Hi Norma,

That must be the prize quote on a thread entitled "Alphon--The A6 "hit man"?". Quite ironic and revealing don't you think?

KR,
Vic.

Hi Vic

good to see you back

viv

[jimornot?]

Thanks viv,
I am not sure I follow you over the id point you make here but regarding the Liverpool alibi.
It has to be remembered that Hanratty,since leaving school had been spending a fair bit of time in prison .On leaving prison only a few months before [ March] , he apparently had a row with his family and became quite itinerant,hitching lifts,getting together with a chap named Terry and stealing a car, staying on people"s couches coming and going etc.He had made a number of friends in jail,and one or two were from Liverpool.
But it was the France family who provided him with the most support and Hanratty stated that it was France who,when he was 18 years old had introduced him to the Soho scene of petty crooks and gangsters that hung around the Rehearsal Club and it was France who taught him a lot of the tricks of the trade.In fact the France family took him in almost like a son of their own---while Mr and Mrs Hanratty,incredibly supportive and loving though they were of James Hanratty when it was a matter of his life or death , appear to have been pretty fed up with his repetitive housebreaking activities.
Hanratty was at a loose end when he came out of prison.He had no job and no prospects -in short nothing except continuing to break into houses , steal expensive trinkets from them and hope to sell them on through "fences" and--- he hoped--- the proceeds would bring him the life style he wanted.So when he was going up to Liverpool and Rhyl it was mainly to build up his contacts---people who would "sell stuff on" for him that he had obtained from his burglaries.
So if you can put yourself in his position---as someone whose mates are ex prisoners and small time crooks dealing in stolen goods like France did and Louise Anderson, you can immediately see the problems are manifold for him in terms of establishing an "alibi" who the police would immediately want to interview.Most of these friends would run a mile at the thought of having to stand up in court and say that a man wanted for murder and rape, stayed in their flat and had gone to see them to discuss selling stolen goods!
Thats what the judge who presided over his trial must have immediately understood and why he had intervened on hanratty"s behalf and told the jury,"He does not have to prove his alibi.The failure or otherwise of the alibi does not make him guilty .You do not have to rely on it."

Hi Norma

I can relate to this in relation to those unwilling to stand up for him. What I was really getting at was a query over the theory that Hanratty, France and Alphon were somehow linked to the chain of events for which I think 2 main points would bring this into some question

1. If I knew a crime was going to be committed and I MIGHT be implicated then I would make sure I had a good alibi (notwithstanding all you have rightly raised). That might include ensuring keeping train tickets, signing a guest book register, making sure the telegram could more easily provide an alibi than it seems to have done. Of course we could speculate that this is exactly what he was trying to do in a haphazard manner but mucked it up

2. Honour amongst thieves etc is one argument but surely only up to the point until Hanratty knew he was going to die. Despite seeing how others hardly rushed to defend him – Louise a for example, his Liverpool mates perhaps) he still made no attempt to implicate 'the others' (assuming there was a link between Alphon, Hanratty and France)

Just part of the debate

All the best

Viv

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

That must be the prize quote on a thread entitled "Alphon--The A6 "hit man"?". Quite ironic and revealing don't you think?

KR,
Vic.

Now you really are talking gobbledegook Victor! Ha Ha!

[Victor]

"He does not have to prove his alibi.The failure or otherwise of the alibi does not make him guilty .You do not have to rely on it."

Hi Norma,

That must be the prize quote on a thread entitled "Alphon--The A6 "hit man"?". Quite ironic and revealing don't you think?

KR,
Vic.