Alphon--The A6 "hit man"?

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Julie,
I am not surprised your daughter tends to say Fursday for Thursday and Brover for brother since this one of the more fashionable London "speaks" especially amongst the young .Even in Hanratty"s day it was considered stylish - in 1962 for example "The Stones" who were always edgey, introduced themselves with strong London accents---as opposed to" Cliff " who used a kind of "mid-Atlantic speak".
Alphon, according to those mates he went regularly to "the Dogs" with , say he spoke with a strong London accent with them and used Cockney elisions such as "aint" regularly when discussing the merits of the racing greyhounds with them.
Clearly he switched his speaking styles according to who he was with and how he wanted to present himself.
Best,
Norma

[Limehouse]

It's a strage thing with accents because I was born in Walthamstow in London E17 and raised just a few miles away in E4. Although I have a London accent - I don't drop my 'hs' or use f instead of th or v instead of th. I also tend to say 'milk' and 'walk' instead of 'miwk' and 'wawk'. However - my daughter - who lived in London for only 11 weeks as a new born - does say 'fursday' and 'brover'. Now - how does that happen? She must have been influenced far more by the accents of her peers than my own accent.

Getting back to Hanratty aqnd Alphon - I wonder how Alphon would have pronounced the phrase 'be quiet will you - I'm thinkling' if he had been asked? And it is a strange thing that she picked Clark out on the first parade without asking anyone to say anything yet on the second parade - after 20 minutes of deliberation - she asked them all to speak. Was this because she wanted to be very sure this time that the right man was selected or was it because she was unsure?

[Natalie Severn]

Well Julie, I reckon there were whole armies of females "overtaken" , when he sang that corny old "Tonights the Night!" But Rod is a wonderful blues singer,for all those corny hits.
On a more serious note,he is also a quintessential London lad who made it---from those stylish white suits ,glamorous blonds and fast cars down to him determinedly retaining his strong Cockney accent .I was quite surprised last night to hear him still saying "free" for "three" and "wiv" for "with" delivered along with a whole lot of cockney cheek!
I wonder what the bumpkins from the Bedford Jury would have made of Rod"s "body language" when he swung his bum at them and shouted "Don"t you think I"m sexy!"---I reckon they"d have him down as some kind of dangerous sex maniac who needed to be safely locked up for twenty years !

[Limehouse]

Ah Rod! When I was a teenager - he was far too cocky and 'laddish' for my taste but now he's mellowed wonderfully. I love him singing the blues and those soppy old ballads and would certainly like to lay back and and enjoy him! Oh but how naughty I am being!

[Natalie Severn]

Hey folks---tune into Rod Stewart on ITV 3 right now----hear Rod Stewart saying "wiv" for with and fre"pence for Threpence! [or better still lay back and enjoy him-like Andy and me are doing!]

[Natalie Severn]

Hanratty swung because he pronounced thre'pence as fre'pence, London lower class style, at the identity parade. Valerie apparently didn't know him from Adam apart from that.

And experienced car thieves can drive a bit I would imagine.

Thanks Stephen,
I am not so sure its London "lower class style"-----only today I was screen printing where the artistic director of this big Central London establishment constantly used "v" and "f" for "th".He had no impediment by the way-just a cool Londoner talking in a way thats cool among artists and other stylish speakers ! But Stephen,I agree with you wholeheartedly in every other respect!
Best
Norma


Thanks Julie, that was my point, Nx

[Stephen Thomas]

Hanratty swung because he pronounced thre'pence as fre'pence, London lower class style, at the identity parade. Valerie apparently didn't know him from Adam apart from that.

And experienced car thieves can drive a bit I would imagine.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Vic,

Surely the fact that his second child was conceived during the time he was allegedly having an affair with Valerie indicates that his married life was not so disposable?

I agree.However,he had in fact moved out to a flat that week---or made arrangements to.This to me indicates a man torn between his mistress and his wife.

I don't follow this argument, surely having an affair would only increase the money worries and exacerbate the problem.

Yes, but There was no indication whatever that he wanted to stop the affair with Valerie, but there were indications he was moving further away from his wife and family ,as he was moving out of the family home wasn"t he?

Now that is pure speculation and utterly irrelevent

Any depressive illness carries with it the risk of suicide.Mike Gregsten"s lifeline could well have been Valerie Storie.

[Limehouse]

There are aspects to the relationship between Gregsten and Valerie that have an impact on how this crime is perceived and what the motive was. It is relevant to explore the nature of this relationship because the issue of it being - on Gregsten's part - adulterous -lends weight to theories about the motive being to scare or separate thje couple - or punish them.

It would be interesting to speculate on whether the crime would be seen differently had the couple been a married pair sitting in a pub car park when they were abducted. The 'stick-up theory' would seem to have more credibility had that been the case - especially it there was no connection - however distant - between one of the victims and an acquaintance of the suspect.

[Victor]

Something about his four year affair with Valerie Storie suggests she meant more to him than money could buy---latterly she clearly meant more to him than his life with Janet and his two children,all of whom he appears to have cared a good deal about -but was still going to move away from and into a flat of his own.Clearly his family were losing the battle because he just wasnt willing to sacrifice Valerie for them .

Hi Norma,

Surely the fact that his second child was conceived during the time he was allegedly having an affair with Valerie indicates that his married life was not so disposable?

Don"t forget Gregsten suffered from a depression that had blighted his life for years and that he had spent hundreds of pounds trying to cure himself from at the Tavistock Institute.Valerie on the other hand ,nearly twenty years younger than him ,an exciting companion and just as bright as he was ,probably lifted him out of his depression ,worries about money etc which was probably priceless to him.

I don't follow this argument, surely having an affair would only increase the money worries and exacerbate the problem.

As a severe depressive-he might have died anyway if Valerie had left him, by his own hand,

Now that is pure speculation and utterly irrelevent.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

It'd be way better to bribe Mike with it. Or just give it to Janet to hand out if Mike behaved himself.

But "money can"t buy you love"---as Lennon sang as he left beautiful Cynthia and little Julian for 37 year old Yoko.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Vic,

Still £2,000 to £5,000 in those days is a huge amount of money and it would have been significantly better to offer it to Mike on the condition he'd stop his various affairs and be a good husband.

Something about his four year affair with Valerie Storie suggests she meant more to him than money could buy---latterly she clearly meant more to him than his life with Janet and his two children,all of whom he appears to have cared a good deal about -but was still going to move away from and into a flat of his own.Clearly his family were losing the battle because he just wasnt willing to sacrifice Valerie for them .Don"t forget Gregsten suffered from a depression that had blighted his life for years and that he had spent hundreds of pounds trying to cure himself from at the Tavistock Institute.Valerie on the other hand ,nearly twenty years younger than him ,an exciting companion and just as bright as he was ,probably lifted him out of his depression ,worries about money etc which was probably priceless to him.As a severe depressive-he might have died anyway if Valerie had left him, by his own hand,
Best
Norma

[Victor]

No Vic,somebody else is talking about killing ---not me! I believe the gunman may have been "appointed" to "scare off " Valerie---thats all !

Hi Norma,

Still £2,000 to £5,000 in those days is a huge amount of money and it would have been significantly better to offer it to Mike on the condition he'd stop his various affairs and be a good husband.

So its possible the 5 hour mystery ride with the masked gunman was an attempt to scare the wits out of the copulating couple in the cornfield and possibly see off Valerie altogether in the process !

It'd be way better to bribe Mike with it. Or just give it to Janet to hand out if Mike behaved himself.

In fact Gregsten hit out with the duffle bag and the gunman fired in panic!

That's not a definitely ascertained fact, it's the excuse\explanation\reason\whatever the gunman told Valerie just after the shots were fired. It could even be the gunman thought MG was swinging the duffel bag at him, when actually he was passing it back as he was asked to.

The shocking events that followed were a consequence of a plan that went badly wrong.

The shocking events could easily be a consequence of the accidental shooting, whether it was a plan or not is pure speculation.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

I'm afraid I can't Norma but I am not so sure if Julian Galves was leaned on by the police as Nudds appears to have been. i personally don't think eitehr of their testiomnies are particularly reliable

I do agree it odd that Alphon didn't have to comply with a request to see the contents of his suitcases though

atb

viv

Missed your bit about the ladies black nylon gloves Viv!
Well I think Juliana was probably the only reliable witness from the Vienna Hotel quite frankly!

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

£2,000 to kill someone. You've said before there's lots of small time crooks that'd do it for a tenth the amount. Even that much for a professional hit is ridiculous.

KR,
Vic.

No Vic,somebody else is talking about killing ---not me! I believe the gunman may have been "appointed" to "scare off " Valerie---thats all ! The affair[between VS and MG was hotting up since Mike Gregsten was in the process of moving out of the marital home and having a flat of his own which moves the affair between Valerie and Janet"s husband onto quite a different level.Janet is to be left quite literally "holding the baby" [her youngest child was two and was born in the middle of the four year affair between Valerie Storie and Mike Gregsten].So its possible the 5 hour mystery ride with the masked gunman was an attempt to scare the wits out of the copulating couple in the cornfield and possibly see off Valerie altogether in the process !
In fact Gregsten hit out with the duffle bag and the gunman fired in panic!

The shocking events that followed were a consequence of a plan that went badly wrong.