Alphon did not do it...

[Victor]

I have given a link explaining how and when DNA can "disappear" and discussed the way in which the DNA from the rapist on the knickers could have been of extremely limited content by the time the pathologists had finished targeting it for extraction.This happened twice in 1961---August 23rd and December 28th 1961 ---they found body fluid from VS,MG and the rapist ---blood group "O" [Alphon"s and Hanratty"s].

Hi Norma,

As Derrick points out on the main thread, cell source cannot be determined, so how are you accounting for the scientists to be able to distinguish between MG's and the rapist's semen for targetting?

Next the fragment of old cloth was not then stored according to modern requirements but instead was found in a locker with a broken vial and Hanratty"s trousers---which we know had semen on the inside fly---because some of that was removed for testing too in 1961.So after 31 years in substandard conditions of storage-by modern standards- and abundant opportunities of contamination,the fragment is tested yet again , this time to discover the rapists DNA in 1995 and surprise ,surprise, it yielded nothing---but the scant DNA left on the cloth was left another 6 years to further "degrade" and what little was left was put to be tested by Low Copy number DNA testing---notorious for including contaminated DNA in its results---and blow me down Hanratty"s "DNA" pops up,bold as brass [and probably from his stored trousers or the broken vial].

From para 119 of the judgment:-

The file containing the fragment from the knickers was discovered in 1991 by Jennifer Wiles. It was still packaged as described except that the cellophane package was no longer intact. Also found in the file were some broken slides and slide holders possibly having contained hairs and fibres collected at the scene of the murder. There were also two polythene bags each containing hairs thought now to have come from Alphon. There was another polythene bag containing a number of bullets and significantly, so Mr Mansfield submits, a polythene bag containing a small rubber bung and fragments of glass including a curved piece suggesting that the polythene bag had at one time contained a glass vial or tube.

There's no mention of Hanratty's trousers being stored, and all the items mentioned are in seperate polythene bags.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0608182541.htm

From http://www.theforensicinstitute.com/...tement%202.pdf
"DNA is an inherently stable molecule and requires something to destroy or degrade it; examples are action by light, cellular enzymes, or bacteria." and "DNA has been extracted from mummies (albeit with mixed success), and profiles are routinely obtained in Medical Genetics from blood spots on card stored at room temperature that are at least 40 years old"

The link you gave refers to action by an enzyme, now where is this enzyme going to come from?

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Derrick,

If you accept the Galves statement, it must mean you reject Nudds 2nd statement where he says he visits Alphon in Room 6, therefore there's no evidence to put Alphon anywhere near Room 24 where the cartridge cases were found.

In any case you are now in the territory of conspiracy theory which means that Alphon was already conspiring to frame Hanratty on 23rd August, and presumably France was involved to provide the link to the hanky from the dirty laundry.

And then there's the blood group O semen that coincidentally matched both Alphon and Hanratty, before going into the DNA arena.

KR,
Vic

Vic,
This is all discussed in full regarding Alphon"s written confession to Jean Justice,and still extant, see Murder versus Murder, pages 116 and 117 ,point number 2 headed "Frame up in the Vienna".
Best
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Caz,
I have given a link explaining how and when DNA can "disappear" and discussed the way in which the DNA from the rapist on the knickers could have been of extremely limited content by the time the pathologists had finished targeting it for extraction.This happened twice in 1961---August 23rd and December 28th 1961 ---they found body fluid from VS,MG and the rapist ---blood group "O" [Alphon"s and Hanratty"s].Next the fragment of old cloth was not then stored according to modern requirements but instead was found in a locker with a broken vial and Hanratty"s trousers---which we know had semen on the inside fly---because some of that was removed for testing too in 1961.So after 31 years in substandard conditions of storage-by modern standards- and abundant opportunities of contamination,the fragment is tested yet again , this time to discover the rapists DNA in 1995 and surprise ,surprise, it yielded nothing---but the scant DNA left on the cloth was left another 6 years to further "degrade" and what little was left was put to be tested by Low Copy number DNA testing---notorious for including contaminated DNA in its results---and blow me down Hanratty"s "DNA" pops up,bold as brass [and probably from his stored trousers or the broken vial].
Caz, these methods of testing are now outlawed in the appeal courts of the States because of new findings viz a viz their "reliability".
But in my opinion,it would surely have been the rapists DNA that was targeted for testing and extraction from the cloth ? It seems quite obvious to me that that was what they were looking for?

There are a number of studies actually concerning mixed samples of old DNA which explain why they are no longer lawful to use as evidence in appeal courts in the USA .Their tendency to give muddled test results-due to contamination, being the most prevalent reason for no longer being used there [as in most European countries]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090608182541.htm

Best Wishes,
Norma

[Victor]

It is quite plausible that someone, wearing gloves (perhaps like the black nylon ones seen on top of the laundry in Alphons case by Juliana Galves just before noon on the 23rd August 1961) planted the hanky wrapped gun on the bus and the cartridge cases in room 24.

Hi Derrick,

If you accept the Galves statement, it must mean you reject Nudds 2nd statement where he says he visits Alphon in Room 6, therefore there's no evidence to put Alphon anywhere near Room 24 where the cartridge cases were found.

In any case you are now in the territory of conspiracy theory which means that Alphon was already conspiring to frame Hanratty on 23rd August, and presumably France was involved to provide the link to the hanky from the dirty laundry.

And then there's the blood group O semen that coincidentally matched both Alphon and Hanratty, before going into the DNA arena.

KR,
Vic

[caz]

Touching cloth

Victor

Who said Alphon touched anything at all? I certainly didn't.
It is quite plausible that someone, wearing gloves (perhaps like the black nylon ones seen on top of the laundry in Alphons case by Juliana Galves just before noon on the 23rd August 1961) planted the hanky wrapped gun on the bus and the cartridge cases in room 24.

Derrick

Well if Alphon is being accused of rape by anyone on this thread, his semen must have touched that piece of cloth!

It beggars belief that it could all have accidentally gone AWOL (or been the only one of four people's DNA on that cloth to degrade - and degrade completely) and accidentally been replaced by Hanratty's.

If this didn't beggar belief, we can be sure that Hanratty's defenders would have had something to say about it.

Not one of them could come up with a remotely sensible alternative explanation.

I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - on these boards to offer one.

The explanations I have seen so far hold no water. But pure faith can make people imagine it by the bucketful.

Love,

Caz
X

[Limehouse]

Victor

Who said Alphon touched anything at all? I certainly didn't.
It is quite plausible that someone, wearing gloves (perhaps like the black nylon ones seen on top of the laundry in Alphons case by Juliana Galves just before noon on the 23rd August 1961) planted the hanky wrapped gun on the bus and the cartridge cases in room 24.

Derrick

Hi Derrick

I full believe that - whoever committed the murder - those cartridge cases were not left in room 24 by the killer and were probably 'held back' as a trump card.

By the way - I am very impressed by your posts. Keep up the good work.

Julie

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Derrick---that is my take on it exactly I must admit.Moreover Alphon was looking very disturbed indeed according to Juliana Galves---just as those people were in the Alexandra Hotel.
Now sane,normal people dont go round hotels looking like the 'Wild Man of Borneo " and frightening the life out of everyone who sees them.Sounds like Alphon was more than ready for the loony bin at that juncture.

[Derrick]

Hi Derrick,

The hanky profile was not a mixed profile.

Argument destroyed. Alphon did not touch the hanky or gun.

KR,
Vic.

Victor

Who said Alphon touched anything at all? I certainly didn't.
It is quite plausible that someone, wearing gloves (perhaps like the black nylon ones seen on top of the laundry in Alphons case by Juliana Galves just before noon on the 23rd August 1961) planted the hanky wrapped gun on the bus and the cartridge cases in room 24.

Derrick

[Victor]

Way back on 23rd August 1961 and December 1961 Seminal fluid was extracted from the knickers or the crotch piece of same that gave a blood group reading of Group "O" alongside Gregsten"s in lesser quantity from Blood group AB.
What we dont know is when upon finding these two lots of seminal fluid the pathologist then targeted for extraction the seminal fluid of the rapist---ie blood group "O" --- as seems likely.In order to do this the cloth must have yielded sufficient seminal fluid to make up a wash for analysis .

Hi Norma,

It's impossible to identify the source of a semen stain visually, what must have happened is that a wash was made of an area of the material but I don't know exactly how this was done. I don't think it is reasonable to assume that the scientists could target the rapist's semen to wash and yet leave sufficient quantities of MG's semen and VS vaginal fluid to be detected later.

But still this 40 year old cloth was subjected to further washes and further testing that targeted the extraction of the DNA that did not belong to either Valerie or Gregsten.

I do not think the entire fragment was washed for the first round of SGM testing, Woffinden implies this in the final paragraphs of his book. He suggests a portion of the fragment was cut off and dropped into a solvent for all the DNA on it to be washed out, and a similar process on the rest of the fragment for the LCN tests.

By 1961, the original rapist" s DNA could actually have begun to disappear through "extraction" from the fragment of cloth due to it being the targeted exhibit needed for evidence even in 1961 and so according to the above link I gave last night it "could have" disappeared",due an insufficient quantity of it being left on the cloth to make it viable for testing in 2002, while the other,less disturbed fluids from VS and MG and were still extant.

One of the links you gave (I think it's from Budowle or Jamieson) explicitly say that your suggestion is unnaceptable, and that an external trigger such as action of light or bacteria is needed to decompose DNA.

Meanwhile, contaminants from what was extracted from Hanratty"s trousers and kept in a wash in the broken vial found amongst the exhibits where the fragment of cloth was found ,could have caused his DNA to be found there.

The broken vial could have contained a wash from Alphon's samples as there were some of his hairs in that file, however, you'd need both of these acting together to replace the rapist's semen with Hanratty's whilst leaving Gregsten's intact. I don't think that's remotely likely.

There were a lot of shady goings on in 1961 and a lot of shady characters wheeled on to give testimony on the prosecutions behalf.

And a vicious rapist and murderer to catch too.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

But it didn't did it! VS and MG profile's were still detected, so why should the rapist's selectively disappear? Why would their's persist but another not?

KR,
Vic.

Hi Vic,
Way back on 23rd August 1961 and December 1961 Seminal fluid was extracted from the knickers or the crotch piece of same that gave a blood group reading of Group "O" alongside Gregsten"s in lesser quantity from Blood group AB.
What we dont know is when upon finding these two lots of seminal fluid the pathologist then targeted for extraction the seminal fluid of the rapist---ie blood group "O" --- as seems likely.In order to do this the cloth must have yielded sufficient seminal fluid to make up a wash for analysis .The distribution of seminal fluid was from the crotch area to 5 inches up the back, yet only the crotch area was kept for further storage---and only half of that it turns out was kept in the envelope.So I wonder actually where the rapists DNA was mostly deposited---on the crotch or the area upwards of 5 inches at the back?
Gregsten"s seminal fluid was not very important finally for further testing,neither was Valerie"s vaginal fluid.But the rapists was and I suspect rather more of the rapists fluid was extracted for testing than the that of the others , and this would apply to the trial tests of 1995 for DNA ,on the 40 year old fragment,which yielded nothing much of use.But still this 40 year old cloth was subjected to further washes and further testing that targeted the extraction of the DNA that did not belong to either Valerie or Gregsten.
By 1961, the original rapist" s DNA could actually have begun to disappear through "extraction" from the fragment of cloth due to it being the targeted exhibit needed for evidence even in 1961 and so according to the above link I gave last night it "could have" disappeared",due an insufficient quantity of it being left on the cloth to make it viable for testing in 2002, while the other,less disturbed fluids from VS and MG and were still extant.
Meanwhile, contaminants from what was extracted from Hanratty"s trousers and kept in a wash in the broken vial found amongst the exhibits where the fragment of cloth was found ,could have caused his DNA to be found there.

There were a lot of shady goings on in 1961 and a lot of shady characters wheeled on to give testimony on the prosecutions behalf.
Best Wishes Vic,
Norma

[Victor]

LCN DNA testing can not rule out or exclude anyone -suspect or otherwise.

Absoltuly yes it can!

That's where the confidence of a profile comes in. I don't know the confidence in that result, and neither do you. If for example 20 of the 26 peaks mismatched Alphon then that is conclusive for me!

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Indeed it is Victor--I was aware---but read on......about when DNA does disappear ----from sources other than old bones for example.

Hi Norma,

But it didn't did it! VS and MG profile's were still detected, so why should the rapist's selectively disappear? Why would their's persist but another not?

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hmmm... from that link...
"However, it's possible to extract DNA from ancient human remains. They usually pull it out of a bone sample, as this is all that is left. There has even been an extraction from a neanderthal!"

Interesting! Absolutely consistent with the 4,000 year old mummy scenario.

KR,
Vic.

Indeed it is Victor--I was aware---but read on......about when DNA does disappear ----from sources other than old bones for example.

[Natalie Severn]

Those acting for the Hanratty family in the 2002 appeal must have accepted that Alphon did not do it on the basis that his DNA was not discovered on the knickers fragment, but neither was anyone else's (save Gregsten's and Storie's), so by implication, not only did Alphon not do it, neither did anyone else other than Hanratty.

The 2002 appeal turned therefore on the question as to whether the 1962 trial was fundamentally flawed to the extent Hanratty should be acquitted even though he was 'guilty'.

I would have thought it is now fully understood that such acceptance was in the context of the time of the appeal 2002. A lot more has since been discovered about the reliability of testing such tiny quantities from fragments of old cloth whose history is suspect. LCN DNA testing can not rule out or exclude anyone -suspect or otherwise.

[Victor]

---and DNA can disappear-
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...7124555AAFg8aZ

Hmmm... from that link...
"However, it's possible to extract DNA from ancient human remains. They usually pull it out of a bone sample, as this is all that is left. There has even been an extraction from a neanderthal!"

Interesting! Absolutely consistent with the 4,000 year old mummy scenario.

KR,
Vic.