a6 murder

[Steve]

Hi Richard

As I remember the 1960's 'drugs' were something that rock and roll stars indulged in, and trendy teenagers sat in smoke-filled basement coffee bars in the hope of sharing a rolled-up cigarette containing a substance that wasn't exactly tobacco. I clearly remember being in a pub during a police raid when the smokes were ignored because pc plod had been sent to look for under-age drinkers!

Hanratty of course neither smoked nor drank alcohol.

KR
Steve

[Limehouse]

Hi everyone,

I am so pleased we have got back to the old footing with this thread. It's such a pleasure to have a rational debate - it's almost like we're all in the pub!

Re the motive. On the face of it, it really does seem to be a motiveless crime.

Hanratty, despite his intellectual short-comings, had a clear idea of what he wanted when he 'did a job'. He wanted a low-risk, high-return experience and that is mostly what he got.

Now, from what we know of Hanratty, this type of crime was out of character because:

a) It was highly risky and involved being seen and heard
b) The return was likely to be low in relationship to the risk
c) It involved violence (or threat of violence - use of a gun)

Looking at the area that the abduction took place in, Hanratty could have had a much higher return in relation to risk by looking for an emply house to rob, using or threatening to use the gun only if an owner returned.

If the motive was a car to get back to London, again, Hanratty could have picked on an unoccupied car and very competently stolen it.

So, if it was Hanratty, a possible explanation is that he was suffereing some sort of crisis in which he departed dramatically from his usual mode of behaviour and got himself into a terrible mess in the process. What we do know of him is that he suffered some sort of head injury that may have resulted in a personaliuty change.

If it was Hanratty, I don't believe the motive was robbery.

One final thought. Where did he get the gun?

[Steve]

Hi Limehouse

I think you are probably correct that it was actually a motiveless crime, although the motive later became to have sex with Miss Storie. Yes, there would have been richer pickings to be had in Slough, and of course nearby Windsor, and Mr Acott suggested that Hanratty spotted the car just inside the cornfield gate and succumbed to the temptation to become a ‘peeping tom.’

No-one knows for sure where Hanratty got the gun, but he was alleged to have had a ‘gun conversation’ with a man known as Slack, also as Fisher, in Ealing, and probably France was involved to some extent. It was also suggested, by Louise Anderson, that Hanratty kept his gun in the airing cupboard at the France family home.

Kind regards,
Steve

[jimarilyn]

Hi all,

The question about where the killer obtained the gun I believe is one of the most crucial questions in the entire case. Gun ownership in early 1960's Britain I'd say was much less prevalent than today. Surely strict regulations would have been in force at the time re. ownership of firearms, so it shouldn't have been too difficult to trace any particular weapon to any gun shop. The serial number would enable the police to do such a thing. I haven't read much at all concerning the history of this Enfield 38, it must have belonged to someone but who ?

[Steve]

I agree that not enough has been made public about the murder weapon's history, and I feel like you that it's history could have been traced.

I know it sounds odd to say it in 2008 but I bet there were more guns around in the 1950's and early 60's than today. The reason I say that is that many soldiers returning from the war brought souvenirs back with them.

[Granger]

Hi to you all again.

I was a very occasional poster to this thread before the Big Bang. Can I bring up a question I once raised, but was never, as far as I remember, ever resolved. I apologise if the answer is somewhere in the last 250 odd new postings!

Has anyone any conclusive proof that Peter Alphon is either dead or alive? I can never recollect hearing that he had died, although I do recall that he was ill.

[Steve]

Hi Granger

As far as I am aware Peter Alphon is still alive and living in North London.

KR
Steve

[Limehouse]

You are spot on there Steve, there were more guns around then because a lot of people obtained guns during the war in the event that Britain was invaded. Look at the ease with which Christopher Craig and his brother were able to obtain and exchange guns ten years earlier. I would even go as far as to say there were more armed robberies in the 1960s because there was morte cash floating around.

Having said that, where did Hanratty get the gun? How long had he had it? Did he regularly take guns with him on 'jobs'? Had he used than gun before? Why did he leave cartridges around where they could be easily found - why didn't he hide them under the back seat of a DIFFERENT bus to that of the gun?

[Steve]

Hi Limehouse

I don’t think that Hanratty did leave the gun under the back seat of a bus.

KR
Steve

[jimarilyn]

Hi All

The Enfield .38 was found at 8.45pm the day following the murder. As we all know it was discovered under the upstairs back seat of a 36A bus. Edwin Cooke, the bus cleaner who discovered the murder gun, stated that he always as part of his daily routine lifted up the back seat of the bus. Did he clean other buses I wonder, and if so did he look under the back seats of them too ? If his job was merely to clean and hoover the bus why would he feel the need to lift up the back seat, was he looking for something there ? Had he found things there in the past ? He stated that there was nothing under the seat the previous evening. I worked for a while in the mid 1970's as a bus conductor and it was my experience that the number and destination of a bus changed daily, they didn't use the same bus day after day on the same route. Was the number 36A bus a special bus to Mr. Cooke ?

[Limehouse]

One reason for the cleaner routinely lifting the back seat of the bus may have been to collect coins that had rolled under the back seat out of travellers' pockets.

Steve - you are probably right - Hanratty probably did not put the gun there. France's statement that Hanratty had told him it was a good place to hide unwanted loot from a robbery was, to me, almost certainly an attempt to incriminate Hanratty.

remind me - what number was the bus and what was its route? Did it fit in with Hanratty's supposed movements the day following the crime?

[Steve]

Number 36A Bus

In a television interview Cooke called it ‘picking up the buses’ and said that he always checked under the back seat of the bus. I think he might once have found a dead rat there!

The fact that the gun was found on a 36A bus was incriminating for Hanratty because that particular bus route ran past the bottom of Sutherland Avenue in Maida Vale which was where the Vienna hotel was, and because when Hanratty had left the hotel he was allegedly advised by Nudds to look for a number 36 bus.

[Steve]

Number 36A ....

.... Bus in London

[Steve]

Edwin ...

... Cooke, the bus cleaner who discovered the murder gun.

[Steve]

Picture of ...

.... the back seat of a bus where the A6 murder gun was found by Edwin Cooke.