a6 murder

[Victor]

Do take a look at Keef Richards" serialised story in this weeks "The Times"telling its readership about how this and that got "planted" on folk on individuals and in raids in the swingin 60"s

Hi Norma,

Yes, evidence has been planted in previous casses, but how could cartridge cases from the murder weapon have been planted by the Police next to Hanratty's bed for the night before the murder before he had been connected to the crime?

When did Hanratty get away with anything?

He got away with lots of burgularies and car thefts, true he was prosecuted for a few of them, but not Trevonne for one.

But now we have the answer written large by you Vic! It explains so much about the case ---the mindset that equates housebreaking with murder. But they are not at all the same thing ,neither in degree of criminality nor as assessed in a court of law!

Where did I say they were remotely similar in anything other than both being crimes for which a moral person would feel remorse?

James specifically made the point that Hanratty was nonchalently wandering round without a care in the word and implied that this was because he was innocent, but that is absolutely wrong, he was nonchalantly wandering around demonstrably carefree about the victims of his admitted and proven crimes.

I agree that there is a vast difference in degree between murder and multiple thefts, but a lack of remorse is a lack of remorse whatever the degree.

The very same mindset that cost Hanratty his life in my view,because the Bedfordshire Jury didnt seem to see the difference either between housebreaking and murder, even though a distinguishing feature of Hanratty"s criminal career had been its total absence of violence---his record was clear,he had never used violence.

It's possible that the jury members did not appreciate the difference in degree, but there was other evidence and you are speculating.

And then there is the issue that Hanratty had expressed a wish to become a "stick-up man" so must have considered the prospect of violence on becoming one.

And then there's the issue of whether the murder was accidental, or a defensive, impulsive reflex on being (or thought to have being) attacked with a duffel bag. The lack of violent intent if that was the case would be compatable with Hanratty's non-violent history.

So in my view Hanratty would have behaved differently after committing such a terrible crime as this.

That's an important point, but of course we don't know where Hanratty was in the day or two after the crime, he claimed to be in Liverpool and\or Rhyl, but that is yet another lie.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Vic,

Yes, evidence has been planted in previous casses, but how could cartridge cases from the murder weapon have been planted by the Police next to Hanratty's bed for the night before the murder before he had been connected to the crime?

I see what you mean.No, I don"t think the police planted any cartridge cases in the Vienna Hotel [best not to put that into my head right now!].At present I think that they were found in the hotel, and planted in room 24 by Nudds who,in his first statement implicated Hanratty[under his alias of Ryan] and gave Alphon an alibi for the night of 22nd August.So I actually think that was all going to plan: Nudds pointing out to the police how he directed Ryan[Hanratty] to a number 36 bus ---the police only too aware that the gun and 60 rounds of cartridge had been found under the back seat of a number 36 bus!
But,the police at that time were having none of Nudds"s attempt to implicate this "Ryan" chap[Hanratty] .They were confident that they had got their man and that man was Alphon [who had booked in on 22nd August under the alias of Durrant] so their attention was fixed firmly on Alphon,at that stage.
So Nudds and his lady friend Florence Snell were taken to Scotland Yard and with Inspector Oxford in tow Inspector Acott got a second statement out of Nudds and Snell and this time Acott was told that "Alphon" had indeed been inside Room 24 and had even left his case there---and Alphon"s alibi for the night of 22nd August suddenly disappeared along with his mother"s and was never ever heard of again!
Clearly the used cartridge cases were either left by the last person to have been in Room 24 ---which according to Nudds in his second statement was Alphon or they were put there deliberately by Nudds on the day he was fired for theft from the Vienna Hotel 11th September,possibly to keep the goodwill of the police regarding his second statement.Alternatively someone returned there after the murder to plant the two used cartridge cases in room 24 deliberately! Take your pick.We know the who the prosecution decided had left the cartridge cases there, once they dropped Alphon from their enquiries -----that is after Valerie had picked out Michael Clark instead of Alphon in the ID parade.
Best
Norma

[Victor]

Clearly the used cartridge cases were either left by the last person to have been in Room 24 ---which according to Nudds in his second statement was Alphon or they were put there deliberately by Nudds on the day he was fired for theft from the Vienna Hotel 11th September,possibly to keep the goodwill of the police regarding his second statement.Alternatively someone returned there after the murder to plant the two used cartridge cases in room 24 deliberately! Take your pick.We know the who the prosecution decided had left the cartridge cases there, once they dropped Alphon from their enquiries -----that is after Valerie had picked out Michael Clark instead of Alphon in the ID parade.

Hi Norma,

I don't have my books with me at the moment, have you got the dates of Nudds 1st, 2nd and 3rd statements because I think they were made after the cartridge cases were found, so if Nudds planted them he would be framing the mysterious (unknown to him) Ryan who then turned out to have no alibi for the night of the murder, the same blood type as the rapist, &tc., and then much later has the same DNA profile as the rapist and the person who left their hanky wrapped round the murder weapon - which of course was a couple of weeks before the cartridge cases were found!

James Hanratty knew absolutely zilch about the A6 murder. One of the strongest pointers to this can be seen in his carefree behaviour both prior to and post A6 murder. Behaviour consistent with an innocent man. He had no guilty secret preying on his mind and he interacted with friends and acquaintances in the same old happy go lucky manner. These friends and acquaintances detected no tell-tale signs in his behaviour of him harbouring any momentous secret. This contrasts starkly with the strange behaviour of a certain educated 30 year old male who hid himself low in the immediate aftermath of the crime,

Having thought about the above comment a while, it struck me that when these 2 suspects discovered that they were suspected of murder, what did they do?

Hanratty went on the run.
Alphon turned himself in at a Police Station with the press in tow!

I think that speaks volumes about which one has a guilty conscience.

KR,
Vic.

[NickB]

have you got the dates of Nudds 1st, 2nd and 3rd statements because I think they were made after the cartridge cases were found

They were.

1st : 15-Sep;
2nd : 21-Sep;
3rd : 25-Sep.

I have always been puzzled by this.

On 12-Sept, just after the cartridge cases were found, the police got Galves to give her second statement saying she had not seen Alphon until 12 noon on 23-Aug. This removed the alibi she had appeared to give in her first statement saying Alphon “arrived at about 11:30 p.m” on 22-Aug.

All was set then for Nudds to say what he did in his second statement. But he didn’t! Instead he gave his first statement saying he saw Alphon arrive at about 11.30 pm, giving back Alphon the alibi that Galves had removed.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nick,
Here is what Nudds said in his "second statement":
I saw Durrant [Alphon] arrive at 1.00 pm.My wife and I were together at the reception desk.We had no single or small rooms to offer him........In accordance with our general practice I allocated him Room 24,which is a large room in the basement..........Durrant walked round the room which is level with a park and said ,"I dont like a basement,I prefer a room upstairs........he told us he would be very late in and not to wait up for him...........at 2am Durrant was the only guest who had not returned to the hotel.We decided to leave a note for him notifying him of the change of room.........At 9.50 am on 23rd my wife said the only one who had not had breakfast was Durrant.......I went and knocked at his door-- he told me he had come back at 11 oclock .My wife said ,"He couldn"t have or we would have seen him.He couldn"t have got our note then at 11 pm on 22nd [as they wrote it at 2am on 23rd] and yet be in number 6 now.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

I don't have my books with me at the moment, have you got the dates of Nudds 1st, 2nd and 3rd statements because I think they were made after the cartridge cases were found, so if Nudds planted them he would be framing the mysterious (unknown to him) Ryan who then turned out to have no alibi for the night of the murder, the same blood type as the rapist, &tc., and then much later has the same DNA profile as the rapist and the person who left their hanky wrapped round the murder weapon - which of course was a couple of weeks before the cartridge cases were found!


Having thought about the above comment a while, it struck me that when these 2 suspects discovered that they were suspected of murder, what did they do?

Hanratty went on the run.
Alphon turned himself in at a Police Station with the press in tow!

I think that speaks volumes about which one has a guilty conscience.

KR,
Vic.

Vic,
What makes you say that Hanratty was "unknown to Nudds"?

He didnt go "on the run" until midnight on 5th October ie 43 days after the murder.He had telephoned Acott and been horrified by what Acott had said to him and he then rang Charles France and blurted out that he was wanted for the A6 Murder.He then telephoned Acott 3 times as well as ringing the press protesting his innocence to Barry Harding * at The Mirror and other journalists.
I think he realised he was being "fitted up " for it there and then and was playing for time to clear his name.
Alphon actually refused to ever hand over his clothes and allegedly said to the police that they were in a locker at a station and he had thrown away the key.
* Barry Harding my ex knew Barry Harding.

[NickB]

Hi Nick,
Here is what Nudds said in his "second statement"

Hi Norma,

What puzzles me is why he didn't say that in his first statement, as it was given on 15th Sep after the discovery of the cartridge cases and when he knew the police were after Alphon.

Nick

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

What puzzles me is why he didn't say that in his first statement, as it was given on 15th Sep after the discovery of the cartridge cases and when he knew the police were after Alphon.

Nick

Well it certainly is puzzling Nick !But if it really was Hanratty"s clearly identifiable hanky wrapped around all the amunition under the back seat of the 36 bus two days after the murder then possibly Hanratty was "fitted up" by someone in the criminal fraternity the moment the news broke that the whole thing had gone pear shaped! Nudds being part of that London scene---of gangsters who went to the races--etc may have been someone they liaised with---France could have popped in for example and told Nudds something.

[Derrick]

They were.

1st : 15-Sep;
2nd : 21-Sep;
3rd : 25-Sep.

I have always been puzzled by this.

On 12-Sept, just after the cartridge cases were found, the police got Galves to give her second statement saying she had not seen Alphon until 12 noon on 23-Aug. This removed the alibi she had appeared to give in her first statement saying Alphon “arrived at about 11:30 p.m” on 22-Aug.

All was set then for Nudds to say what he did in his second statement. But he didn’t! Instead he gave his first statement saying he saw Alphon arrive at about 11.30 pm, giving back Alphon the alibi that Galves had removed.

Hi Nick
Good post.
It is interesting that Nudd's 3rd statement was on the 25th the day after Valerie failed to pick out Alphon.
This can only mean that the Vienna was the only lead that the police had.

So that begs several questions.
Why did Acott initially go after Alphon even though Valerie is supposed to have insisted from the outset that the killer had blue eyes?
Why wasn't the Dorney Reach area searched within 48 hours of the crime being committed?
Why wasn't Alphon's initial alibi investigated more deeply if the police had put out an APB on suspicious characters in hotels?
Why are Acott's reason's for eliminating Alphon just not true?
How did Acott get Hanratty's real identity so quickly, if he didn't know it already?
And with what we know now:
Why was Gregstens mileage withheld?
Why did the location of the roadworks change to eventually be near where Hanratty lived?
Why was Harry Hirons mentioned in evidence as seeing the car by Acott when he plainly did not see the car that night? Hirons' garage was near Hanratty's home but the car got fuel near London Airport.
Valerie picked out a picture of someone in a statement that wasn't disclosed, among other reticence.

The whole case stinks. No evidence.

"Pick any alleles from any of the small peaks in the 34 PCR cycle EPG and you have Hanratty". (Wordsworth 1998). Not really Wordsworth, obviously, but you should get the gist of the con by the Crown and the FSS in Hanratty 2002.

Derrick

[NickB]

Hi Derrick

To pick up on a few points:

It is interesting that Nudd's 3rd statement was on the 25th the day after Valerie failed to pick out Alphon.
This can only mean that the Vienna was the only lead that the police had.

But it was also on the 25th that the police received the information from Leonard in Ireland about Ryan probably being Hanratty. Without this Acott might have continued pursuing Alphon.

How did Acott get Hanratty's real identity so quickly, if he didn't know it already?

As you may have gathered from my recent posts on this, I see no reason to doubt the ‘official’ version that it came through Leonard.

Why was Harry Hirons mentioned in evidence as seeing the car by Acott when he plainly did not see the car that night.

I agree, the car did not stop at Harry Hirons garage.
However ... one of the 13 key defence points at the trial was:
‘Harold Hirons, a garage attendant who put petrol in the car while Valerie Storie and Michael Gregsten were still in it, had not identified James Hanratty.’

Nick

[RonIpstone]

If the cartridge cases had been dropped by the murderer in Room 24 then that would be strong, although not conclusive, circumstantial evidence that Hanratty was the murderer.

If Jim's fan club are saying that these spent cartridge cases were planted to frame Jim, then we should bear in mind the serendipitous nature of their discovery. Nudds and his bird had been given their marching orders and Mr Crocker and Mrs Galves made an inspection of the rooms during which the cartridge cases were discovered. Anyone planting this evidence hoping that it would lead the Police eventually to Hanratty was taking something of a gamble. What if Nudds did not get sacked? Or what if Mr Crocker did not make the inspection? Or. what if he decided against reporting the find to the cops? Or if Room 24 had been allocated to a guest who found the cartridge cases but did not report that discovery to the Police?

Moreover, what would be the purpose of framing Hanratty? And who would want to do it?

Alphon had escaped further investigation having satisfied the Police that his alibi was sound. Why would he or his pals want to redirect the Police's attention back to the Vienna where Alphon had stayed on the night of the murder?

It cannot have been the Police who wanted to frame Hanratty as as at the 11 September they did not know that Hanratty had stayed in the Vienna. Could they have wanted to frame Alphon as their most likely suspect to date? This cannot be ruled out, but must be regarded as most unlikely. There is the chance nature of the discovery mentioned above, and until Nudds's second statement implicating Alphon, there was no possible connection between Room 24 and Alphon. There is no indication that the investigating officers in the A6 Murder case were aware before the discovery of the cartridge cases that Nudds was working at the Vienna. They could not have assumed that whoever was working would be as free and easy with the truth as Nudds was to prove to be.

Therefore it is most likely that the cartridge cases were discovered after having been accidentally there by the murderer. As no one, save one Indian, had stayed in Room 24 after the murder, then Jim, as the last occupant of Room 24 and the bed which adjoined the chair where the evidence was found, would be a prime suspect.

The above is not enough to convict or hang someone, but it is strong circumstantial evidence against James Hanratty.

[Natalie Severn]

As no one, save one Indian, had stayed in Room 24 after the murder, then Jim, as the last occupant of Room 24 and the bed which adjoined the chair where the evidence was found, would be a prime suspect.

Forgetting Nudds for a minute Ron and looking at Juliana Galves statement of 13/9 /61.She said in her second statement of 13 September 1961 "Room 24 was not occupied from 16 August till today,13 September.Mr Rapur[an Indian gentleman] came with a waiter from the Broadway House and signed in for Room 24,but then Happenstall said he was leaving,and the Indian gentleman was put into Room 25.He was actually [only] in Room 24 for about 5 minutes before being transferred."
So who to believe?

[Limehouse]

If the cartridge cases had been dropped by the murderer in Room 24 then that would be strong, although not conclusive, circumstantial evidence that Hanratty was the murderer. .

If the murderer had been careless enough to drop the cartridge cases in the room in which he stayed - he was careful enough to wipe his finger prints off them first!

[Victor]

If the murderer had been careless enough to drop the cartridge cases in the room in which he stayed - he was careful enough to wipe his finger prints off them first!

Hi Julie,

Not necessarily true. Proving a negative is pretty difficult (no fingerprints were on the cartridge cases) unless you can guarantee that they were looked for appropriately, and that the tests used were sensitive enough to find them if they were there.

It's the same mantra - Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

KR,
Vic.

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie,

Not necessarily true. Proving a negative is pretty difficult (no fingerprints were on the cartridge cases) unless you can guarantee that they were looked for appropriately, and that the tests used were sensitive enough to find them if they were there.

It's the same mantra - Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

KR,
Vic.

Ok line up the absence of finger prints with the rest of the evidence. The cartridges were found weeks after the murder. There is no evidence they date from the night before the murder. There is no evidence that they were not placed there after the murder.

There IS a statement that maintains the chair was moved the day after Hanratty vacated the room when the ladies cleaning the room did so to move the bed and replace the linen. No cartridges were in evidence then. It's difficult to see how - as some have maintained - that the cartidges became trapped down the back of the chair and only dislodged when the chair was tipped forward because this is not in keeping with someone dropping them by accident. It would have taken a degree of pressure or force to trap them between the stuffing of the chair and its back.