a6 murder

[jimornot?]

............
I would be interested to know why you think they tracked him down by another route and why you think this is significant.

hi Nick

a strange part of this case is how the police came upon the Vienna hotel at all. Alphon alerted some suspicion and it seems very odd indeed that in pursuing him the police ultimately stumbled (in every sense it seems) upon the real culprit.

I have never been convinced on how the police identified Ryan as being Hanrattty and so speculated (merely that) someone had tipped them off. Extending this a bit, maybe they were attracted to the Vienna not by Alphon's behaviour but by an informer and Alphon just happened to divert things for a while.

Lets just assume this was the case then it implies that someone was trying to ensure hanratty was found. It was surely far too early for trying to frame him - no real clues existed at that time so why even bother? If not a frame -up then it would imply inside knowledge and surely tip the argument in favour of his guilt that much more

Just idle speculation and curiosity on how the police identified Ryan as H

I asked some time ago, what new evidence would make each of you change your mind on this case as to the culprit's ID?

eg
samples from the car showing DNA for Hanratty/ Alphon/ A.N. Other? Fund when clearing out some old files

DNA from a 4th person on a sample of knicker fragment suddenly reappearing?

Dixie France's suicide notes revealing secrets?

A confession from someone else -possibly connected to the parties involved - most probably not likely to be convinced if it came from alphon though?

Personal papers from Acott or Oxford revealing something or other?

all the best

Viv

[NickB]

a strange part of this case is how the police came upon the Vienna hotel at all. Alphon alerted some suspicion and it seems very odd indeed that in pursuing him the police ultimately stumbled (in every sense it seems) upon the real culprit.

But Alphon didn't lead the police to a hotel they would not have otherwise have been alerted to when the cartridge cases were found.

Even if his behaviour at the Alexandra Court Hotel had not been reported they still would have come upon the Vienna. Then Alphon would have been of no more interest to them than any other non-Hanratty guest.

[RonIpstone]

Crocker only reported the discovery of the cartridge cases to the police because they had previously made inquiries of the Vienna staff regarding Alphon's alibi. Therefore it was Alphon who indirectly led the inquiry to Hanratty.

Hanratty had been released from prison in March 1961 and from that time to the time he was wanted for the A6 he never established any settled modus vivendi. He worked as a window cleaner, he burgled houses, he worked on a fairground funfair, he lived with his family, he stayed nights with the Frances, he went with prostitutes, he liven in b&bs, he travelled to Liverpool, he went to Rhyl, he flew to Ireland, he stole a car and drove to Manchester, he went to see the lights at Blackpool and probably much more we do not know about. Why it should be said with any confidence that he would not be on a relatively remote Thames side road in the early evening in August is beyond me.

[Natalie Severn]

Crocker only reported the discovery of the cartridge cases to the police because they had previously made inquiries of the Vienna staff regarding Alphon's alibi. Therefore it was Alphon who indirectly led the inquiry to Hanratty

Ron,Crocker only went to The Vienna Hotel to search the rooms to see what else Nudds might have been up to as he had been sacked the previous day ,having stolen money from the Hotel.Thats why Crocker made the search himself and immediately noticed the untidy situation regarding the chair with the stuff hanging from it a full 19 days after the murder and a full 15 days after the police had been to the VIenna Hotel looking for any clues about the murder that might link them to Alphon who had been taken in for questioning due to his suspicious behaviour at the Alexandre Hotel the day after the murder.

Hanratty had been released from prison in March 1961 and from that time to the time he was wanted for the A6 he never established any settled modus vivendi. He worked as a window cleaner, he burgled houses, he worked on a fairground funfair, he lived with his family, he stayed nights with the Frances, he went with prostitutes, he liven in b&bs, he travelled to Liverpool, he went to Rhyl, he flew to Ireland, he stole a car and drove to Manchester, he went to see the lights at Blackpool and probably much more we do not know about.

Well what we also know is that Hanratty was spoken of by those who knew him as a young man who was gentle and kind and who behaved impeccably towards her on their dates a couple of weeks after the murder -this according to his young girl friend Mary Meaden, both Gladys Deacon and Carol France spoke similarly of a chivalrous young man who blushed easily and who,importantly,they had both liked very much---as had Charles France and his wife Charlotte who thought of him as a son.

Why it should be said with any confidence that he would not be on a relatively remote Thames side road in the early evening in August is beyond me

Because it is so damned unlikely! Not a single person saw him in the area either ,but three or four witnesses said they saw someone with receding hair who looked like Alphon .
Norma

[NickB]

Crocker only reported the discovery of the cartridge cases to the police because they had previously made inquiries of the Vienna staff regarding Alphon's alibi.

That is something I proposed earlier on the thread but was persuaded against. I don’t know if you have any information that could persuade me back. I based my proposition on a report that Crocker said he had felt tempted to simply throw them away and suggested the reason he didn’t was because of the previous police inquiries. I am not aware that he ever said this.

Anyway ...

Once Crocker had reported the cartridge cases I cannot see how Hanratty could have avoided being connected with the crime. Even if Alphon had been arrested, his legal team would have been able to trace Hanratty in the same way Acott/Oxford did - through Gerrard Leonard.

[Limehouse]

hi Nick

a strange part of this case is how the police came upon the Vienna hotel at all. Alphon alerted some suspicion and it seems very odd indeed that in pursuing him the police ultimately stumbled (in every sense it seems) upon the real culprit.

I have never been convinced on how the police identified Ryan as being Hanrattty and so speculated (merely that) someone had tipped them off. Extending this a bit, maybe they were attracted to the Vienna not by Alphon's behaviour but by an informer and Alphon just happened to divert things for a while.

Lets just assume this was the case then it implies that someone was trying to ensure hanratty was found. It was surely far too early for trying to frame him - no real clues existed at that time so why even bother? If not a frame -up then it would imply inside knowledge and surely tip the argument in favour of his guilt that much more

Just idle speculation and curiosity on how the police identified Ryan as H

I asked some time ago, what new evidence would make each of you change your mind on this case as to the culprit's ID?

eg
samples from the car showing DNA for Hanratty/ Alphon/ A.N. Other? Fund when clearing out some old files

DNA from a 4th person on a sample of knicker fragment suddenly reappearing?

Dixie France's suicide notes revealing secrets?

A confession from someone else -possibly connected to the parties involved - most probably not likely to be convinced if it came from alphon though?

Personal papers from Acott or Oxford revealing something or other?

all the best

Viv

Viv - this is a very good post. In fact - the posts over the past 24 hours have all been really thought provoking and it is so good to see the debate returning to its former rigor with a great variety of posters on all sides.

Viv - you have made some excellent propositions. The Vienna came into the frame when it emerged that Alphon had stayed at the hotel on the night of the murder. He had already been identified as being suspicious due to his behaviour at the other hotel. It does seem odd that in rejecting Alphon as a suspect following VS's failure to identify him - they managed to find the so-called real culprit at the very same hotel.

If - as you say - they were attracted to the hotel by an informer - someone who wanted Hanratty caught - it could equally have been someone who was an accomplice.

However - there is another possibility. Perhaps the police were tipped off very early in the investigation - to 'look for someone who would probably be staying in a B&B or cheap hotel'. They then concluded that if the culprit was hiding in such a place - he would natrually be acting in a strange way - thus Alphon pops up. Now - this tipster may have known that Hanratty was a petty thief and that he stayed at the Vienna on the night of the murder. This person might also have had knowledge of Hanratty's habits concerning dumping unwanted loot. This person could have dumkped the gun but held back a few cartridges in case the investigation needed to be 'brought back' to the Vienna Hotel for more attention.

To answer your question about what would convince me of Hanratty's guilt - it would be forensic evidence from the car identified soon after the murder. Hair - skin - semen - saliva - blood - finger prints - anything actually on or in the car that could only have got there by Hanratty being in that car. I exclude VS's underwear in this for reasons I have previously described.

[Limehouse]

Anyway ...

Once Crocker had reported the cartridge cases I cannot see how Hanratty could have avoided being connected with the crime. Even if Alphon had been arrested, his legal team would have been able to trace Hanratty in the same way Acott/Oxford did - through Gerrard Leonard.

Indeed Nick. A very telling statement with hidden depths in my opinion.

Julie

[Natalie Severn]

Limehouse
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickB

Anyway ...

Once Crocker had reported the cartridge cases I cannot see how Hanratty could have avoided being connected with the crime. Even if Alphon had been arrested, his legal team would have been able to trace Hanratty in the same way Acott/Oxford did - through Gerrard Leonard.

Indeed Nick. A very telling statement with hidden depths in my opinion.

My understading is that the finding of these cartridge cases by Crocker coincided with him sacking Nudds for theft.In other words the finding of the cartridge cases coincided with the departure of Nudds. Nudds may have left them left them there himself for all we know.

[Limehouse]

My understading is that the finding of these cartridge cases by Crocker coincided with him sacking Nudds for theft.In other words the finding of the cartridge cases coincided with the departure of Nudds. Nudds may have left them left them there himself for all we know.

Exactly Norma. Nudds may have much more to do with this than we may ever know.

[jimornot?]

Exactly Norma. Nudds may have much more to do with this than we may ever know.

thanks for your reply to my earlier post Julie. Do we know of any connection of Nudds to any of the parties in this tragedy - apart from the police that is? Given Nudds' apparent willingness to amend his story to fit what he thought (was told?) what the police wanted, it would not surprise me to learn of other involvement

all the best

viv

[jimornot?]

hi Nick

thanks - I am with Ron though in that it is possible that without early involvement by the police, the gun cartridges may not have seemed significant?

From memory, I thought how the link was made to Ryan a bit unconvincing, it centred (I think but happy to be corrected) on a hire car but was there an a public appeal for details of who Ryan was? If not then how on earth did the truth all fall so conveniently into the police hands? Probably my rcall is a but awry here tho'

atb

viv

[Natalie Severn]

Hi viv,
A little background info about Nudds to refresh our memories:
re William George Richard Nudds
At the time Det. Supt. Acott knew the above as Jack Glickberg .
He had a number of aliases---Edward Baker; Edward Bartlett; David"Jazzer" Beaumont; George Knight;William Itter ; and George Nudds [William Nudds,he testified on oath,was his real name.
He had spent most of his life in prison for fraud.In prison he had acquired a considerable reputation.Nine years previously [20th July 1952] a report in the Empire News began:

"Behind the bars of Parkhurst Prison,Britain"s toughest jail, David Beaumont is serving a sentence of nine years preventative detention, and on every day of that sentence he goes in terror of his life.Goal mobsters have threatened to get him for informing on one of them."

The story of "jazzer" Beaumont"s "Courage" began in 1947 when he gave evidence against a fellow prisoner before visiting magistrates about aslashing incident in prison.Some yearslater. at Parkhurst,he gave similar evidence against a fellow prisoner..........
A Mr Kelly wrote to Paul Foot,"This man Nudds was a notorious informer"......what the prisons call a "mixer" Mr Kelly went on:
"acting on instructions Nudds deliberately planted two letters asking for money to be illegally sent in to him on two hospital officers,who were later arrested,convicted at the isle of Wight magistrates court and sacked..."
Nudds admitted to the Empire News after they had reported several such incidents as the above : "I am the most hated man in Britain.They call me "The Squealer"[Empire News August 3rd 1958].

[Natalie Severn]

hi Nick

thanks - I am with Ron though in that it is possible that without early involvement by the police, the gun cartridges may not have seemed significant?

From memory, I thought how the link was made to Ryan a bit unconvincing, it centred (I think but happy to be corrected) on a hire car but was there an a public appeal for details of who Ryan was? If not then how on earth did the truth all fall so conveniently into the police hands? Probably my rcall is a but awry here tho'

atb

viv

Hi Viv,
If "The Sketch" and "Mail" articles of February 19th 1962, were right, the Murder Squad had some record of the telephone call from Mr Ewer on September 1st which had led to a man called "Ryan", who had sent flowers to his mother,a Mrs Hanratty,in Sycamore Grove,Kingsbury.

[NickB]

Hi Viv,

it is possible that without early involvement by the police, the gun cartridges may not have seemed significant

Agreed.

I thought how the link was made to Ryan a bit unconvincing

I don't think it has ever been explained in detail so below is my attempt to piece things together.

1. Soon after the 7-Sep car crash Mr Pratt of 72 Wood Lane receives a letter from the Irish car hire firm. He informs them no-one by the name of Ryan lives there.

2. The car hire firm refer the matter to the Irish police who discover the car licence had been fraudulently obtained using a false name and address. They make enquiries at hotels about a James Ryan of Wood Lane, Kingsbury, London NW.

3. The Irish police discover that someone of that description shared a Cork hotel room with Gerrard Leonard. In answer to questions about Ryan’s real name, Leonard tells them about the postcards he wrote on Ryan’s behalf.

4. On 25-Sep Acott/Oxford discuss the matter with the Irish police and decide the postcard Leonard wrote to Hanratty’s mother is the most promising lead.

5.On 26-Sep (morning) Acott/Oxford visit Mr Pratt who confirms that no-one called Ryan lives at 72 Wood Lane.

6. On 26-Sep (afternoon) Acott/Oxford visit Hanratty’s parents. Mrs Hanratty confirms that the postcard was from her son.

[RonIpstone]

I don't think it has ever been explained in detail so below is my attempt to piece things together.

Hi Nick,

On the question of Crocker and whether he would have reported the discovery of the cartridge cases if the Vienna had not previously been investigated with regard to Alphon's alibi, in my earlier post I expressed the view that there was a possibility that we not have. This seems to have been Woffinden's view as well. However, no one, not even Crocker, can say what he would have done if a different set of circumstances had existed at the time of the discovery. It is hypothetical, but commonsense seems to dictate that the previous involvement of the police would make it more likely that his discovery would be reported.

As to your theory as to how the Ryan/Hanratty connection was made, I agree that the Irish crash has probably something to do with how the police found Hanratty. I would say, however, that:

1. The police would have interviewed George Pratt shortly after 11 Sept 1961 when the cartridge cases were found.

2. At the time of Pratt's interview he knew (probably) neither of Ryan nor the fact that he had also hired a car in Ireland and also given Pratt's address.

3. At some time subsequent to the first interview he receives the communication from the car hire firm in the Republic, which he passes on to the police.

4. From then the police are able to trace Hanratty from the various postcards etc.

I do not think that the Irish police would spend any time on investigating a minor car crash even if it had involved the fraudulent hiring of a car, but obviously would investigate if it involved a murder.

Commonsense would dictate that the police would try to trace everyone at the relevant time who had stayed at the Vienna, particularly in Room 24, and would not wait until Alphon had been ruled out of the inquiry. What is not explained is why the police got Nudds to change his story on the 21 Sept when Hanratty had not been found and his impeccable credentials as the A6 Murderer had not been fully explored.