a6 murder

[caz]

Hi jim,

That's a bit odd then, because I assumed Liverpudlians - especially - were all very used to hearing Irish accents and would instantly recognise it if there was more than a trace of Irish in Hanratty's. I presume you can correct me on that. Or was the sweet shop lady not a Liverpudlian herself, and a recent arrival to the area at the time?

Another solution, of course, would be that the man who spoke to her wasn't Hanratty at all.

Love,

Caz
X

[Stewart P Evans]

Common Sense

Hi jim,
That's a bit odd then, because I assumed Liverpudlians - especially - were all very used to hearing Irish accents and would instantly recognise it if there was more than a trace of Irish in Hanratty's. I presume you can correct me on that. Or was the sweet shop lady not a Liverpudlian herself, and a recent arrival to the area at the time?
Another solution, of course, would be that the man who spoke to her wasn't Hanratty at all.
Love,
Caz
X

That sounds too much like common sense to me Caz.

[Graham]

Hanratty's Accent

Jim,

can I refer you to Page 165 of the paperback edition of the Blessed Bob Woffinden's book:

JH was examined by Prof Dennis Fry of the Phonestics Dept, University College, London, who said, quote, "In my opinion his speech is typical in every way of a man with his background and upbringing; his pronunciation is that of a boy of low educational attainment brought up in London. I could not detect any feature in his pronunciation which could be regarded as a personal peculiarity. His mode of speech was shared by very many thousands of Londoners".

Nothing there to suggest an Irish, Scots or Welsh accent or a combination of them.

The Liverpool/Rhyl alibi remains as weak as it ever was.

Regards,

Graham

[jimarilyn]

That's a bit odd then, because I assumed Liverpudlians - especially - were all very used to hearing Irish accents and would instantly recognise it if there was more than a trace of Irish in Hanratty's. I presume you can correct me on that. Or was the sweet shop lady not a Liverpudlian herself, and a recent arrival to the area at the time?

Not at all the case. I've lived in Liverpool all of my life and the occasions I've heard [or spoken with] an Irish sounding person have been few and far between. The last time was about 3 or 4 years ago when I had a conversation with an Irish girl who was walking her dog in Calderstones Park. Mrs Dinwoodie, the sweet shop lady never mentioned an Irish accent [it was Nudds who remarked that Hanratty sounded possibly Irish] - she thought it was possibly a Scottish/Welsh accent. That's what she said it sounded like to her ear. The important thing to note is that it was a dialect she was not used to hearing everyday.

Another solution, of course, would be that the man who spoke to her wasn't Hanratty at all.

And he just happened to be a dead ringer for Hanratty ? And he just happened to ask her for directions to a Carlton or Tarleton Street/Road ? Around 4.30pm on Tuesday August 22nd 1961 ? Pull the other one Caz !

[jimarilyn]

Jim,

can I refer you to Page 165 of the paperback edition of the Blessed Bob Woffinden's book:

JH was examined by Prof Dennis Fry of the Phonestics Dept, University College, London, who said, quote, "In my opinion his speech is typical in every way of a man with his background and upbringing; his pronunciation is that of a boy of low educational attainment brought up in London. I could not detect any feature in his pronunciation which could be regarded as a personal peculiarity. His mode of speech was shared by very many thousands of Londoners".

Nothing there to suggest an Irish, Scots or Welsh accent or a combination of them.

The Liverpool/Rhyl alibi remains as weak as it ever was.

Regards,

Graham

Graham,

Professor Fry was speaking about Hanratty's pronunciation of words, not his accent. He was obviously referring to Hanratty's tendency to pronounce "th" as an "f" ( eg. fings, fink, free, firty and so on) which was "shared by very many thousands of Londoners".

I never said Hanratty had an Irish, Scottish or Welsh accent, Graham.
Nudds, who conversed with Hanratty on the morning of August 22nd, before he left for Liverpool, stated ...."whereas Ryan had an accent, possibly Irish, Durrant had no accent and was better spoken" (see page 68 of St. Robert's book). So to Nudds's ear at least [and Nudds himself was a native Londoner] Hanratty had an accent which was somewhat different to his own, and which suggested to him that he might be Irish. To another ear in the North West of England he might sound a bit Scottish.

On the contrary, the Liverpool/Real alibi becomes stronger and stronger and is reinforced by the testimony of Mrs Dinwoodie, Barbara Ford, Robert Kempt, Grace Jones, Brenda Harris, Margaret Walker, Betty Davies, Ivy Vincent, Christopher Larman and Trevor Dutton, to mention just ten people. All respectable and upright citizens with no ulterior motives or axes to grind.

[Victor]

That's a bit odd then, because I assumed Liverpudlians - especially - were all very used to hearing Irish accents and would instantly recognise it if there was more than a trace of Irish in Hanratty's. I presume you can correct me on that. Or was the sweet shop lady not a Liverpudlian herself, and a recent arrival to the area at the time?

Another solution, of course, would be that the man who spoke to her wasn't Hanratty at all.

Hi Caz,

It's also rather important to note that Olive Dinwoodie was insistent that the encounter in the sweet shop was on Monday 21st August 1961, and two other witnesses (including her granddaughter) corroborated this. Hanratty was in London on that day according to 3 members of the France family, Hanratty himself, Nudds, and the Vienna guest book.

KR,
Vic.

[Tony]

Hi Caz,

It's also rather important to note that Olive Dinwoodie was insistent that the encounter in the sweet shop was on Monday 21st August 1961, and two other witnesses (including her granddaughter) corroborated this. Hanratty was in London on that day according to 3 members of the France family, Hanratty himself, Nudds, and the Vienna guest book.

KR,
Vic.

Old ground I know but the main prosecution witnesses included; Nudds, France, Anderson, Langdale and Acott. A dodgy bunch if ever there was one.
OK I’ll leave Acott out; on second thoughts I won’t.

James has given you a list of defence witnesses and they are just the type of people who would not want anything to do with helping a murderer and rapist. Quite the opposite in fact.

People want us to believe that Hanratty, although guilty, decides to invent an alibi about going into a sweetshop and asking directions to a street he is not sure about. If he was guilty he would never in a million years have expected an honest member of the community to come forward to reinforce his ‘lie’.
Mrs Dinwoodie would no more go out of her way to support a man accused of rape and murder than any of the good citizens of Rhyl. But she did.
Swanwick believed her and as he had made such a strong case for Hanratty being in London all day Monday it could only have taken place on the Tuesday.
Thus Hanratty would have needed a helicopter that day.

Why did these honest, upright solid citizens go out of their way to stick up for Hanratty when it would be so much easier to keep quiet? They had nothing to gain.
Why did the defence witnesses go out of their way to blacken Hanratty? Perhaps they did have something to gain.

Tony.

[Victor]

Old ground I know but the main prosecution witnesses included; Nudds, France, Anderson, Langdale and Acott. A dodgy bunch if ever there was one.
OK I’ll leave Acott out; on second thoughts I won’t.

Yes it is old ground, and the first 4 of those 5 witnesses are dodgy.

James has given you a list of defence witnesses and they are just the type of people who would not want anything to do with helping a murderer and rapist. Quite the opposite in fact.

On the contrary, the Liverpool/Real alibi becomes stronger and stronger and is reinforced by the testimony of Mrs Dinwoodie, Barbara Ford, Robert Kempt, Grace Jones, Brenda Harris, Margaret Walker, Betty Davies, Ivy Vincent, Christopher Larman and Trevor Dutton, to mention just ten people. All respectable and upright citizens with no ulterior motives or axes to grind.

Olive Dinwoodie and Barbara Ford testified that the sweet shop incident happened on the Monday.
Grace Jones and Brenda Harris testified that her guest house was full and there was only one spare bed in the bathroom, which Hanratty never mentioned staying in.

People want us to believe that Hanratty, although guilty, decides to invent an alibi about going into a sweetshop and asking directions to a street he is not sure about. If he was guilty he would never in a million years have expected an honest member of the community to come forward to reinforce his ‘lie’.
Mrs Dinwoodie would no more go out of her way to support a man accused of rape and murder than any of the good citizens of Rhyl. But she did.

No she didn't, she absolutely contradicts his statement by insisting it took place on the Monday.

Swanwick believed her and as he had made such a strong case for Hanratty being in London all day Monday it could only have taken place on the Tuesday.

If, as you keep reiterating, she was wrong about the day, then how reliable is the rest of her testimony?

Why did these honest, upright solid citizens go out of their way to stick up for Hanratty when it would be so much easier to keep quiet? They had nothing to gain.

With Justice throwing his money at the case, and Foot pestering them for details so he could sell more sensationalist stories to Private Eye...

Why did the defence witnesses go out of their way to blacken Hanratty? Perhaps they did have something to gain.

Langdale got his leniency. Anderson, France and Grace Jones weren't prosecuted. Nudds doesn't seem to have got anything.

But the main witness, Storie, who maintains her belief that Hanratty raped her, got nothing.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

Yes it is old ground, and the first 4 of those 5 witnesses are dodgy.

I would describe all 5 as dodgy witnesses. Is Acott not a dodgy witness in your eyes just because he was a policeman ?

Olive Dinwoodie and Barbara Ford testified that the sweet shop incident happened on the Monday.

The reason Mrs Dinwoodie mistook the day for the Monday was simply because of Hanratty's mention of "a small girl serving with her in the shop". This small girl was of course her granddaughter, Barbara Ford. However it was later revealed that Barbara and her friend Linda Walton popped into the sweet shop the next day (22nd) on their way back from the City Centre. Barbara stated that this was around 4.45pm. They were there for about half an hour and Barbara went behind the counter from time to time to serve children sweets.

Even Acott conceded that.... "if Mrs Dinwoodie saw him, it must have been on 22 August. I had Mrs Dinwoodie's statement double-checked by a further inquiry. Mrs Dinwoodie is a perfectly respectable and responsible citizen."

Grace Jones and Brenda Harris testified that her guest house was full and there was only one spare bed in the bathroom, which Hanratty never mentioned staying in.

How would Hanratty know of the green bath unless he occupied that room ? The room was marked 'Private'. And for obvious reasons. Mrs Jones wasn't likely to broadcast the fact to other guests that her bathroom contained a bed as it was in breach of Guesthouse regulations.

With Justice throwing his money at the case, and Foot pestering them for details so he could sell more sensationalist stories to Private Eye...

Oh dear !

[Victor]

to me, both these statements seem to imply that the police knew that there would be, at sometime in the future, a test which would do what the D.N.A test appeared to do, and that the evidence was retained, suitably stored in anticipation of such a test. Can this be true? Was the advent of the forensic D.N.A test forseen as far back as 1962? And is there evidence from other trials of the same period, similarly stored, waiting for a D.N.A test?

Hi larue,

The judgment states that the samples were discovered in 1991 by Jennifer Wiles, and that they hadn't been particularly "suitably stored", instead it was just left in an old file.

KR,
Vic.

[Tony]

[QUOTE=jimarilyn;128820]Even Acott conceded that.... "if Mrs Dinwoodie saw him, it must have been on 22 August. I had Mrs Dinwoodie's statement double-checked by a further inquiry. Mrs Dinwoodie is a perfectly respectable and responsible citizen."



How would Hanratty know of the green bath unless he occupied that room ? The room was marked 'Private'. And for obvious reasons. Mrs Jones wasn't likely to broadcast the fact to other guests that her bathroom contained a bed as it was in breach of Guesthouse regulations.



(QUOTE]


How many green baths were there in the early 60’s?

I remember ripping out my bathroom and putting in a new suite in about 1979 and my wife asked me if I could get hold of one of those new ‘coloured’ baths. Before that every house had white.
I had ripped out a white suite; by weekend we were proudly bathing in a new Avocado bath.

I personally had never seen a green bath.

We never had posh holidays when I was a kid; we only ever went to Rhyl and stayed in lots of different boarding houses and you had to reserve a time to have a bath.
I never saw a green bath in any boarding house in Rhyl and we would have stayed quite close to Ingledene. It must have been very unusual at the time.
I remember my Mum and Dad taking us to see Ingledene at the time. It was just round the corner.

Tony

[Victor]

How would Hanratty know of the green bath unless he occupied that room ?

Have you seen that bath? I haven't and I know it's green!

[Graham]

As far as I can recall Hanratty never claimed he slept in any bathroom; he just said that 'in the attic there was a room with a green bath', or words to that effect.

Also, even though most of the guests staying at Ingledene during that week were contacted, not one of them could recall seeing anyone who resembled James Hanratty.

Graham

[jimarilyn]

Also, even though most of the guests staying at Ingledene during that week were contacted, not one of them could recall seeing anyone who resembled James Hanratty.
Graham

That's hardly surprising considering that Hanratty sat down to breakfast with Mrs Jones and her daughter Brenda in their own living room, due to the dining room being full up.

I would imagine that once breakfast was finished, most (if not all) of the guests would have vacated their rooms and headed for the various attractions that the very popular and busy seaside resort offered tourists in those days. It was the height of the summer season. Hanratty himself headed for the fairground and amusement arcades (and made at least one attempt to sell a stolen gold watch). What opportunity would any Ingledene guest have had to see Hanratty, if they, like him, were out and about for most of that Wednesday ?

[Tony]

That's hardly surprising considering that Hanratty sat down to breakfast with Mrs Jones and her daughter Brenda in their own living room, due to the dining room being full up.

I would imagine that once breakfast was finished, most (if not all) of the guests would have vacated their rooms and headed for the various attractions that the very popular and busy seaside resort offered tourists in those days. It was the height of the summer season. Hanratty himself headed for the fairground and amusement arcades (and made at least one attempt to sell a stolen gold watch). What opportunity would any Ingledene guest have had to see Hanratty, if they, like him, were out and about for most of that Wednesday ?

Hi James,

All those years ago in the late 50’s and early 60’s you had to vacate your rooms after breakfast and you were not allowed back into the boarding house until tea time.
That’s dinner for you Southern Softies.

Tony.