a6 murder

[Graham]

Hi all,

I've been away for a couple or three days, so not up to speed.

Sorry to see SteveS go, as he added to the debate, but he was disappointingly long on words and even more disappointingly short on answers.

I'm still waiting to hear from Mr Dupplin Muir, of that ilk, who claimed not so long ago that he had some information that would make our eyes pop (or words to that effect).

Hi Ron,

So, does anyone know if any member of the Hanratty family, or their lawyers or experts instructed on their behalf is doing anything to discredit the expert evidence which weighed so heavily against Hanratty in the 2002 appeal?

Someone, I believe maybe Larue, wrote to Sherrard earlier this year to ask if there were any recent developments, etc., and he wasn't graced with a reply. My guess is that this lack of response is lawyer-speak for it's-all-over-as-far-as-this-firm-is-concerned.

The most vocal member of the Hanratty family, Michael, now lives in Spain (again discovered by someone on this thread, not sure who) and as he hasn't been heard from for years I'd have to say that that suggests he's no longer active - that is NOT to suggest that he no longer considers his brother to be innocent.

I still think, as a JimDidItite, that there's lots of room in this thread for serious discussion - it's far too complicated a case to just drop it. At the risk of repeating myself, I'd like to know:

- what precisely was Dixie France's role in the A6 Case? Did he or Hanratty put the gun on the bus?
- was there really the possibility that Ewer and Hanratty might have been aware of one another via Louise Anderson?
- did both Hanratty and Alphon use the Rehearsal Club, as has been suggested?
- how much, if anything, did Hanratty's Liverpool friend, (the one whose name I can never remember but who refused to co-operate with the investigation) know about Hanratty's part in the A6 Case?
- where Hanratty was in the few days after the crime?

- and a few other questions that I'm too tired to ask tonight.

Cheers,

Graham

[jimornot?]

[QUOTE=Graham;109499],
....... I still think, as a JimDidItite, that there's lots of room in this thread for serious discussion - it's far too complicated a case to just drop it. At the risk of repeating myself, I'd like to know:

- what precisely was Dixie France's role in the A6 Case? Did he or Hanratty put the gun on the bus?
- was there really the possibility that Ewer and Hanratty might have been aware of one another via Louise Anderson?
- did both Hanratty and Alphon use the Rehearsal Club, as has been suggested?
- how much, if anything, did Hanratty's Liverpool friend, (the one whose name I can never remember but who refused to co-operate with the investigation) know about Hanratty's part in the A6 Case?
- where Hanratty was in the few days after the crime?

................


Hi Graham

I agree with all you say about the potential continuing themes of this thread - along with any further discussion on how Hanratty might not have done it. The revelations promised have taken a long time in coming - fascinating to think what they could possibly be that might add impetus to us all

Maybe someone will appear on this thread with some kind of 'verifiable' connection to key players. BlueMoon and a couple of others made some reference to connections but nothing heard on that score since.

Intriguing to think how the likes of Ewer, Anderson, France, Hanratty and Alphon might ALL have 'met' / crossed paths in the past.

this thread has raised so many interesting matters and issues - remember the discussion that centred on the confession given to a catholic priest? I (and I am sure most of us) have learned an awful lot. We must keep it going

all the best

Viv

PS SteveS hope you stick around

[larue]

Someone, I believe maybe Larue, wrote to Sherrard earlier this year to ask if there were any recent developments, etc., and he wasn't graced with a reply. My guess is that this lack of response is lawyer-speak for it's-all-over-as-far-as-this-firm-is-concerned.

hi Graham

believe it or not, the letter i wrote to Michael Sherrard was dated September 22 2007.

i think the reason i did not get a reply was simply that, at that time, Mr Sherrard was probably busy collating material for his [then] planned book, was it 'Wigs and Wherefores'? that was published, i think, last year at 25 quid a pop.

i know i have been accused of being overly cynical on this thread, [ which i certainy am, and proud of it!!!! ] so Mr Sherrard is hardly going to give away for free valuable copy that can be included in his book. which, by the way, i have not purchased.

the main question i wanted to aks him, given that in recent years he said something like 'i believe the wrong man was not executed' was, on the basis of which evidence exactly was this decision made, and was it made before or after the dna result were known???

i guess i'll never know

[larue]

I still think, as a JimDidItite, that there's lots of room in this thread for serious discussion - it's far too complicated a case to just drop it.

hi Graham

as a still-sitting-on-the-fence-ite, i totally agree with you. unfortunately, i cannot answer any of your very valid questions with factual answers. though i still live in hope of a revelation that could still turn this case on it's head.

i thought we were going to get lucky a while ago, when Stewart Evans started posting here, but with all due respect to him, i was a bit disapointed when he did not mention what it was that was found in the search of JH's room. but, if Mr Evans made the decision to withold, for whatever reason, i respect and accept that decision.

[caz]

I don't have any more to say on the DNA in Hanratty other than that in my opinion the results were faked to suit the Crowns position.

Hi Steve,

I'm disappointed if that's the best you can do to rubbish the DNA findings, but not all that surprised. It was always going to be a tall order for anyone to explain them scientifically in terms of Hanratty's innocence and another man's guilt.

It's so much easier to put the results down to a conspiracy which, by its nature, won't be providing a scrap of evidence to expose itself.

But going that route will not win anyone over and might lose you the fence sitters who were only concerned with the robustness of the science. By suggesting the DNA evidence was faked, you are admitting that they made it appear very convincing and powerful, even to you. They'd have been stupid as well as corrupt if they'd made it look in any way weak or inconclusive.

Bit of an own goal there if I may say so.

Love,

Caz
X

[larue]

Is anyone trying to clear him now?

hi RonIpstone

i honestly doubt that there is any 'official' ongoing attempt to do this.

[larue]

from the website:

http://paul-magee.com/category/james-hanratty-the-a6-murder/

in the section re: Louise Anderson

When asked if she noticed anything about the way Hanratty spoke. Anderson said:

‘He speaks with a high pitched effeminate voice.’


i cannot remember reading if VS mentions this very particular description. all i can recall her saying is that JH spoke with an east london accent. can anyone jog my memory?

[jimarilyn]

Louise Anderson

Further on the subject of Louise Anderson.

Intriguingly enough she spoke very admiringly of Hanratty on October 9th 1961 to a Daily Mirror Reporter (Edward Vale). In that interview she said that she wasn't scared of him. She also told Vale that..."Jimmy was slim and had a lovely fresh complexion. He was always washing his hands"

Three short months later at the Bedford trial she had changed her tune completely. She now said she "was frightened of the man". She introduced him to Mary Meaden "because I did not want him to trespass any longer in my flat and so that I would not be alone with him in my flat". Seems like someone had leaned heavily on her in those intervening 3 months to bring about a complete change of opinion of him.

Another very reliable and trustworthy witness for the prosecution.

[jimornot?]

Further on the subject of Louise Anderson.

Intriguingly enough she spoke very admiringly of Hanratty on October 9th 1961 to a Daily Mirror Reporter (Edward Vale). In that interview she said that she wasn't scared of him. She also told Vale that..."Jimmy was slim and had a lovely fresh complexion. He was always washing his hands"

Three short months later at the Bedford trial she had changed her tune completely. She now said she "was frightened of the man". She introduced him to Mary Meaden "because I did not want him to trespass any longer in my flat and so that I would not be alone with him in my flat". Seems like someone had leaned heavily on her in those intervening 3 months to bring about a complete change of opinion of him.

Another very reliable and trustworthy witness for the prosecution.

Hi James

that's exactly how I saw it and feel she had a vested interest in giving eveidence against him - no charges for handling stolen goods being one. But, playing devil's advocate what if she was convinced of his guilt and felt he had been frighteningly convincing as a good but errant egg? It would be natural enough for her to have a 180 degree turn and with some kind of vengeance.

just a thought and echoing as posted before, a potential reason why Dixie France killed himself -ie felt he let his family esp. his daughter down. Interesting that his suicide note didn't appear to reveal anything much and I would have thought if he felt he'd helped finger an innocent man, some kind of reference would be made to it (unkless he was being leaned on and if so by whom?)

Certainly don't think Louise Anderson was a particularly credible witness along with Roy Langdale to name but 2. hanratty didn't seem to do himself any favours either.


all the best

Viv

PS assume the defence made reference to her earlier statements to the press in cross examination?

[Limehouse]

Hello folks,

I am creeping back quietly in the hope that there is no one behind the door waiting to bash me over the head with something heavy.

I have been keeping an eye on the debate recently and I must say, I have been very impressed. I would particularly like to focus on Graham's key questions because I think that, when you set the very contentious DNA evidence aside, there are aspects to this case that remain unanswered and should have been explored further before the trial.

Firstly, did Dixie France have any hand at all in the events surrounding the A6 case apart from his friendship with Hanratty? Several scenarios are possible:

a) Dixie obtained the gun, thinking that Hanratty was going to use it to obtain a large amount of cash. When he realised just what Hanratty had allegedly done, he killed himself, unable to endure the guilt of Gregsten's death and Valerie's injuries and also the guilt of introducing Hanratty into his household.

b) Dixie disposed of the gun and in doing so framed Hanratty. He perhaps did so because he was being leaned on for some reason. He killed himself because Hanratty was his mate.

c) Dixie had no hand in the A6 events at all but was shocked to think that his friend may have been involved. He was depressed because he saw hilself as a failure in general and no particular good to his family.

I suppose there are various other scenarios that could be discussed?

Was there a Hanratty, Ewer, Anderson connection? Well, if you believe that Hanratty was hired, here is an obvious possibility. However, why didn't the police investigate this possibility more thoroughly? After all, it seems to provide a motive. My impression is that, when Alphon was snared, the police were convinced they had got their man. They were so convinced, they took the unusual step of naming him. However, in Alphon, they had a seemingly motiveless criminal. When the Alphon possibility dissolved and their attention turned to Hanratty, they were kind of obliged to stick with the theory that the events were a 'robbery gone wrong'. Also, they were keen to continue to promote the idea that Gregten and Storie were a couple of colleagues sitting in a field arranging a motor rally for their workmates. The promotion of a motive that suggested a 'hit man' hired to separate them was not in keeping with the way the prosecution was crafted.

Did both Alphon and Hanratty use the Rehearsal Club? Hmm. Not sure about this. Alphon strikes me as a rather reclusive individual who preferred his own company and spent a lot of time indulging himself in his rather peculiar reading material. However, he seemed to have socialised well during his time with Justice and his crew so perhaps he just lacked the ability to make and keep friends and needed a bit of a 'friendship mentor' which he found in Justice. Certainly, I think the club played a significant role in the A6 events, but only in so much that Hanratty's involvement in the club and the people he met there may have left him open to being framed.

Where was Hanratty in the days following the crime? What a fantastic question - and one that has occupied a lot of time in my thoughts. Was he in Liverpool and Rhyl? Well, wintesses swear he was but they are rather dismissed (unlike the much more shady witnesses such as Anderson, Nudds and Langdale, whose testimonies must have swayed at least some of the jury). The point that concerns me is, if the prosecution insist Hanratty was not in Rhyl then where was he? Who saw him? Why didn't the police issue a request for hotels and guest houses to check their records for a J Ryan? Why didn't anyone come forward who could testify that Hanratty stayed somewhere else on those nights? After all, such a request originally led to Alphon and thus Hanratty so why didn't a similar request reveal a similar result?

Who was hiding him?

More to come.

[burkhilly]

Welcome back Julie. I've always enjoyed reading your posts!

[Tony]

Welcome back Julie. I've always enjoyed reading your posts!

Yes I agree,

Julie is very important to this debate and she left for the same reasons as myself.

But she knows plenty about this case and her input is to be admired.

I used to post a light hearted view of proceedings after the event but I now don’t feel I am able because people on here will not take it in the right spirit.

Welcome back Julie and I should apologise for not sending a PM to you; that will be corrected this weekend.

Tony.

[Victor]

Hi Julie,

I'm glad to see you back posting too.

Firstly, did Dixie France have any hand at all in the events surrounding the A6 case apart from his friendship with Hanratty? Several scenarios are possible:

a) Dixie obtained the gun, thinking that Hanratty was going to use it to obtain a large amount of cash. When he realised just what Hanratty had allegedly done, he killed himself, unable to endure the guilt of Gregsten's death and Valerie's injuries and also the guilt of introducing Hanratty into his household.

b) Dixie disposed of the gun and in doing so framed Hanratty. He perhaps did so because he was being leaned on for some reason. He killed himself because Hanratty was his mate.

c) Dixie had no hand in the A6 events at all but was shocked to think that his friend may have been involved. He was depressed because he saw hilself as a failure in general and no particular good to his family.

I suppose there are various other scenarios that could be discussed?

d) The gun was Dixie's and Hanratty stole it from him.

My impression is that, when Alphon was snared, the police were convinced they had got their man. They were so convinced, they took the unusual step of naming him.

This was after the police had interviewed Alphon for the Alexandra Court Hotel incident, and released him, and were then given the 2nd connection via the cartridge cases and Nudds highly incriminating 2nd statement.

they were keen to continue to promote the idea that Gregten and Storie were a couple of colleagues sitting in a field arranging a motor rally for their workmates.

Which might explain why it's thought that they would notice which direction the gunman approached from, but if they were preoccupied with eachother then he could have approached unobserved.

However, he [Alphon] seemed to have socialised well during his time with Justice and his crew so perhaps he just lacked the ability to make and keep friends and needed a bit of a 'friendship mentor' which he found in Justice.

I get the opposite impression, Alphon was tolerated at best and enticed to reveal more about the case. I can't imagine extreme right-wing views and homosexual relationships mixing well. Alphon was on to a good deal, whether that be Justice's largesse or companionship, and he milked it.

Where was Hanratty in the days following the crime? What a fantastic question - and one that has occupied a lot of time in my thoughts. Was he in Liverpool and Rhyl?

I agree, that is very intruiging.

The point that concerns me is, if the prosecution insist Hanratty was not in Rhyl then where was he? Who saw him? Why didn't the police issue a request for hotels and guest houses to check their records for a J Ryan? Why didn't anyone come forward who could testify that Hanratty stayed somewhere else on those nights?

Indeed, but Hanratty had flown to Ireland before the cartridge cases were found and the name J Ryan was linked to the case.

More to come.

Good.

KR,
Vic.

[Limehouse]

Hi Burkhilly, Tony and Vic,

Thanks for my welcome back. It is very much appreciated.

Vic, your scenario [I](d) the gun was Dixie's and Hanratty stole it from him[I] seems to eminate from the testimony of Anderson which, in my opinion, is as reliable as Nudds. It is fairly well established (and has been excellently described by Jim in an earlier post) that Anderson turned evidence against Hanratty to save her own skin.

However the police came to name Alphon, they did so, believing they had their man. It is strange they did this, as Alphon seems to have differed in appearance from the now 'accepted' description that later transpired into Hanratty's appearance, but of course, Alphon did resemble the description noted by Kerr and later distributed to news channels. It is strange also that the police seem to have accpeted whatever version of events Nudds threw at them at various points, as you say Vic, partly using his 2nd statement as the basis for naming Alphon, but of course, later accepting other versions that seemed to clear Alphon.

Of course, we know Hanratty went to Ireland, but where was he in the days immediately following the murder? Where did he stay? With whom? If his version of events is fiction, what is the truth? Why wasn't more donw to fully establish his whereabouts? Where did he eat? Where did he sleep? Who did he speak to?

Photos show that Alphon did part-take in social events with Justice and his gang and he appeared quite comfortable in their company. I accept that Justice was using Alphon to extract a confession. In fact, in his book, Justice hints heavily at a deeper relationship between him and Alphon. Justice's descriptions of how he manipulated the relationship between them made me feel slightly uncomfortable, although I accept that Alphon was being equally manipulative. My feelings about Alphon are that he was unhinged, that he capitalised on his involvement in the A6 case but that his actual involvement was almost certainly accidental.

In terms of what can be further debated concerning this crime, I would like to return to the issue of the gun being fully loaded when found. I think this is extremely relevant in determining a number of things:

a) if dumped by the murderer, it suggests that the shooting was not as accidental as it might have been thought. By that I mean that even if the murderer acted impetuously, afraid of Gregten's sudden movement, he was not actually that shocked by the use of the gun, and was prepared to use it again (as he did - to shoot Valerie) and again (as he seems to have re-loaded after shooting Valerie)

b) if dumped and re-loaded by someone else, the motivation for re-loading might be entirely different.

[Andrew]

Gants Hill?

Hello All,
Yes, welcome back Limehouse.
I am also sceptical about Alphon’s involvement, but it must be said that he usually did his homework when trying to convince us of his version of events. I’ve been thinking how the witnesses place the Minor as arriving at Redbridge from the east, which isn’t the direction that one would expect. Am I dreaming or did Alphon explain that with a diversion to Southend (the mileage evidence might bear that out).Anyway the car was driven straight past Gants Hill station to get to Redbridge as if that destination was important in the escape plan. Everyone assumes that the Central Line was the next part of the journey, but perhaps not......
Regards
Andrew