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  • I should have thanked jimarilyn (James?) earlier for his kind welcome.

    Graham, like a lot of people who read Foot and Woffinden's books, I was a Jimdidnotdoite but the DNA evidence converted me to a Jimdiditite. However if everyone were in the same camp, the forum would be very boring, so all shades of opinion should be tolerated.

    One point which is put forward in Hanratty's defence is that the murderer was not a good driver, whereas Hanratty was, or so runs the argument.

    Clearly the murderer was not a proficient driver according to Valerie Storie's account of the early hours of 23rd of August and the witnesses in London later that day.

    JH had form for car theft, and according to Woffinden (page p 86) had 'learned' to drive between February 1957 and 3 July 1957. He does seem to have been unsuccessful in his car thieving as is evidenced by the fact that he was caught in July 1957 and again in March 1958. A car thief who can drive properly and in a manner which does not draw attention to himself is more likely to evade capture than one who cannot.

    We also know that within hours of taking his hire car in Ireland he had bent it. Likewise we know that in the early days of his ownership of his new Alpine it also had suffered body damage. It is a matter of debate as to whether the damage was sustained before or after JH took delivery.

    As against the above pointers to the effect that JH was useless behind the wheel, we have statements quoted in earlier posts on this forum that his younger brother, Michael, had said that JH was a good driver and had in fact taught Michael to drive. But if this is true one has to ask when and in which vehicle this driving tuition took place? Does anyone know the answer to that question?

    I did pose the above questions in an earlier post, but it might have got submerged by Babybird67's polemic.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Limehouse View Post
      ...and have only ever commented on the arrogance and smugness of a few posts where I felt competely justified.
      I'll be sorry to see you go, Limehouse, but words have consequences, and nobody likes to be accused of writing arrogantly and smugly, do they? There was at least one "Hanratty is 100% innocent - fact" poster, whose consistently arrogant and smug way with words took the breath away. So I can fully understand why bb was miffed to be singled out by you for the same accusation, while you seemed to have nothing but admiration for this other poster - who shall remain nameless in his absence.

      If you go, it will be in consequence of your own choice of words, and the reaction they provoked.

      Originally posted by RonIpstone View Post
      As I understand it, a good DNA profile eventually was obtained from the surviving exhibits, and that this seemed to match the putative profile of Hanratty, as obtained from mother and brother. It was at this stage that the Hanratty supporters became less keen on the application of "state-of-the-art forensic analysis" and opposed the exhumation of Hanratty. I think that Paul Foot described the exhumation as "grotesque".

      The DNA clearly established Hanratty's guilt, and the correctness of Storie's identification.
      Thanks very much, Ron. Very interesting indeed, and it would seem to confirm my suspicions that the early optimism about DNA analysis among the faithful was bound to do a complete U-turn as soon as it tightened Hanratty's noose instead of loosening it.

      I do think bb had a good point about living criminals convicted by the same technique. Is anyone from this thread, who thinks the technique was inherently unreliable at that time (and gave an incorrect result in the A6 case), campaigning on behalf of those languishing behind bars as we speak? If not, then perhaps they should ask themselves why not, if they are supposed to be supporting a general principle about justice and fair play for all. Is it because this is now personal and emotional, and no longer about that universal principle, or even about the man himself, James Hanratty?

      Love,

      Caz
      X
      Last edited by caz; 11-26-2009, 03:06 PM.
      "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


      Comment


      • Originally posted by caz View Post

        I do think bb had a good point about living criminals convicted by the same technique. Is anyone from this thread, who thinks the technique was inherently unreliable at that time (and gave an incorrect result in the A6 case), campaigning on behalf of those languishing behind bars as we speak? If not, then perhaps they should ask themselves why not, if they are supposed to be supporting a general principle about justice and fair play for all. Is it because this is now personal and emotional, and no longer about that universal principle, or even about the man himself, James Hanratty?
        Caz. there are no cases where the evidence is over 40 years old, as far as I know, that is. However two that come close in the longevity stakes of the evidence are, first the conviction of Ronald Castree in 2007 for the murder of Lesley Molseed in 1975. A gap of 32 years occurred between the crime and the linking of the DNA evidence to the convicted man. The other is that of John Humble in 2006 for the sending of the "Wearside Jack" letters and tapes to the Police looking for the Yorkshire Ripper in 1978 and 1979.

        However, the Jimdidnotdoitites will say that in the Hanratty case there was the opportunity for the exhibits which eventually disclosed Hanratty's DNA to have been contaminated with other exhibits belonging to Hanratty.

        The problem which the Hanratty supporters (Jimdidnotdoitites) have is that with semen encrusted knickers with the semen belonging to the rapist, the DNA of the rapist would have been detected. So that if there had been contamination the DNA of Hanratty as a contaminant would have been detected in addition to that of the actual rapist/murderer.

        As far as I am able to establish no one versed in forensic DNA has suggested that this is plausible.

        Comment


        • [QUOTE=caz;

          I do think bb had a good point about living criminals convicted by the same technique. Is anyone from this thread, who thinks the technique was inherently unreliable at that time (and gave an incorrect result in the A6 case), campaigning on behalf of those languishing behind bars as we speak? If not, then perhaps they should ask themselves why not, if they are supposed to be supporting a general principle about justice and fair play for all. Is it because this is now personal and emotional, and no longer about that universal principle, or even about the man himself, James Hanratty?

          Love,

          Caz
          X[/QUOTE]


          Hi Caz


          No doubt this case has involved a lot of emotional investment for some - of course, nowhere near as much as those directly affected by it - but that needn't be a bad thing. Leaving this particular case aside, when there are miscarriages of justice, there will be many examples of people who feel most passionate about it doing what they can to ensure justice is done - even if not necessarily directly (or related/linked to anyone) involved in a particular case. This will not just involve those who earn a living at investagitive journalism . Not all of the 'campaigners' succeeed, not all of them get it right and some will inadvertently set hares running in the wrong direction. But where would things be without them?


          I think people from both sides of this debate (and I admit, more knowledgeable than I on such matters) mentioned before that DNA is but one piece in the whole jigsaw and should not be taken in isolation (probably misquoted that but you will know what I mean). That being so, perhaps those who still feel convinced of Hanratty's innocence are weighing up the coincidences, the inconsistencies etc of this case as they see it and with doubts of their own about the accuracy of LCN DNA, still believe that with all these things considered, a miscarriage of justice has occurred. It most likely has nothing whatsoever to do with Hanratty the man - who was at best a low life and whom they didn't know - but a sense of justice whether misplaced or not.

          as regards your query on other cases a) is this forum actually a campaign or a mere expression of views? b) who knows whether they are doing anything elsewhere and on other cases or not? c) perhaps the other cases do not have the same inconsistencies, coincidences etc to tip the balance enough to make them care so passionately

          no idea of course but just a potential answer to your question

          atb

          viv


          PS it has been asked before but does anyone know what actions the Hanratty family took (are taking?) after the DNA resuts were announced (other than express their doubts about contamination)

          Comment


          • My absolute last word on the accusations that have been directed at me

            When I logged on yesterday, I could not believe what was happening before my eyes. A long, long post, in which I was singled out (no one else was named) and accused of upholding and supporting bullying, collusion in personal abuse based on some personal profile I had not even read and other things besides.

            Firstly, this accusation seems to refer to posts that were made months ago so I am baffled as to why it is all being dragged up now.

            Secondly, I am accused of upholding bullying and failing to respond to abusive behaviour directed at other posters. This is a completely unjustified accusation and to support my claim I am quoting a post I made in direct response to what I considered abusive behaviour:

            Originally posted by Limehouse View Post
            Hi Reg,

            I know you are passionate about this case and loyal to the 'Hanratty didn't do it' faction, but really, your behaviour has been so disappointing. It would be a good idea to take a breather and return when you feel calmer as your contributions are too valuable to be spoilt by abusiveness towards others.

            Kindest regards

            Julie
            I don't see any point in continuing to contribute to this thread. I have enjoyed the debate, I have made some good friends, there have been times when emotions and frustrations have run high and then things have gone quiet and then bubbled up again. I have, at various times, tried to be a peacemaker and I have always, always showed respect towards all of the victims in this case, including VS. Just because I doubt Hanratty's guilt in no way means I underestimate the trauma and tragedy suffered by VS that night. I feel very strongly that I have been singled out unfairly.

            So, this really is all folks.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Limehouse View Post
              So, this really is all folks.
              Hello to all. I have been away from the forum for some time now and it will take me a while to catch up with this most fascinating thread. Glad to see that familiar posters are still here and some new ones have joined the throng. I am looking forward to locking intellectual horns again with those who claim to know that Jim did it. That doesn't automatically mean I think Alphon did it or that Jim didn't do it. I am merely seeking truth. I think that's what most of us are doing.

              Is this now an open and shut case as some would have us believe? If that were true then surely we would all have lost interest ages ago and would confine our thoughts and arguments to more recent mysteries. Despite what some would call overwhelming DNA evidence, there still lingers doubt for some of us. Perhaps in time all will be revealed. Will it be in the form of a further breakthrough in medical science that will change one way or the other our perception of the forensics or will it be some revelation when hitherto unavailable documentation eventually makes its way into the public domain?

              Julie (Limehouse), I truly hope that you will reconsider leaving the forum and perhaps in time you will return to add your voice to the arguments being expounded on this most amazing forum.

              babybird67, I managed to get through your mammoth post although I have to say I skimmed some parts to enable me to get to the end but I think I got the gist of what you are saying. Irrespective of whether I agree or disagree with what you had to say, I must congratulate you for your ability to express yourself. You seem to be here as a staunch supporter of Valerie and believe me I have the utmost sympathy for the ordeal that she was put through by the perpetrator of the horrendous crime that took place on Deadman's Hill. However, I think it is not disrespectful to her to suggest that maybe she was an unreliable witness or that she could be mistaken in her identification of her assailant. I do believe that she is convinced that she picked out the right man at the second identification parade but that doesn't convince me that she is infallible because infallibility is not a human trait. What I am really getting at is for you to not assume that anyone, who dares to suggest that Valerie may have made a mistake in her assertion that Hanratty was the assailant, is attacking Valerie. That's not the case and I believe that we all make mistakes even when we are sure of our facts. Valerie is not on trial and I don't think that women's rights are at stake here. Please don't take any theorising about the circumstances involving Valerie's identification and subsequent testimony as personal attacks upon her. It's impossible to take a rational view of this case without examining all aspects from all angles. It's inevitable that sometimes someone will be offended by the raking over of the ashes of this case. Perhaps we are all guilty sometimes of writing something which is clumsy or thoughtless and I am no exception. I doubt that anyone truly writes specifically to belittle or offend another poster. It happens more through frustration than through genuine malice!

              I wonder what is hidden in those archives that we are not allowed to have access to for many years to come? Why the need for such secrecy?

              Regards,
              James

              Comment


              • [QUOTE=JamesDean;

                I wonder what is hidden in those archives that we are not allowed to have access to for many years to come? Why the need for such secrecy?

                Regards,
                James[/QUOTE]

                Hi James

                good to see you back - you must have quite a bit of reading to catch up on since your last post. But this was worth waiting for....

                I'm intrigued as to what could possibly come to light that would change opinions from either camp. I asked this some time before too. I think some of us might have hoped for something revealing after Peter Alphon died - just to spice things up and regenerate debate......

                Purely hypothetical of course but I wonder what would convince us either way? A long lost note from one of the key players eg Hanratty, Dixie France, Bill Ewer even. Something definitive that clearly indicated contamination of the DNA perhaps - or another sample of knicker fragment surfacing giving different results? Interesting that last one in how we'd all react to that implausible event.

                Re the secrecy on this case - is it normal for records to be unavailable to the public for so long?

                atb

                Viv

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JamesDean View Post
                  I wonder what is hidden in those archives that we are not allowed to have access to for many years to come? Why the need for such secrecy?
                  I was not aware that there was any such secrecy. Government papers are available after 30 years, unless they are specifically restricted for publication, I did not think that this had happened with the Hanratty papers.

                  I had thought that the Police files on the case had been available to the Hanratty defence team for quite some time, even Bob Woffinden seems to have access to them for researching his book published in 1997.

                  Who else has archived material, and why is it said they are secretly withholding it?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by jimornot? View Post

                    Purely hypothetical of course but I wonder what would convince us either way? A long lost note from one of the key players eg Hanratty, Dixie France, Bill Ewer even. Something definitive that clearly indicated contamination of the DNA perhaps - or another sample of knicker fragment surfacing giving different results? Interesting that last one in how we'd all react to that implausible event.
                    It would have to be something pretty earthshattering to convince those who accept the DNA results to be conclusive of Hanratty's guilt. A long lost note from any of the players in this unfortunate drama certainly would not do either way.

                    What the Hanratty is still innocent camp would have to show is that Hanratty's DNA contaminated the exhibit (knicker fragment) so that it impressed Hanratty's DNA on that exhibit and at the same time removed the rapist/murderer's DNA, but left the DNA of Gregsten and Storie unaffected.

                    Those who are waiting for such evidence could be in for a long wait.

                    Comment


                    • Hi RonIpstone

                      Woffinden only had access to Bedfordshire police files on the case. He hasn’t viewed either the Scotland Yard or Home Office papers on the A6 murder.

                      Don’t know whether the trial judge’s report and recommendations are in the public domain or not. France’s suicide notes certainly aren’t, but Foot was allowed to read them on the understanding he didn’t publish their contents.

                      The missing piece of the jigsaw in the prosecution’s case was the name of J. Ryan or J. Hanratty in a London hotel register for 23rd August.

                      Peter

                      Comment


                      • The missing piece of the jigsaw in the prosecution’s case was the name of J. Ryan or J. Hanratty in a London hotel register for 23rd August.
                        And as far as the defence was concerned, such a signature in the guest-book of Ingledene or any other hostelry for the night of August 22nd.

                        Graham
                        We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                        Comment


                        • Mr. Alphon

                          I find it difficult to believe anyone hiring Alphon to sort Gregsten out would have then let the gunman keep such a high and embarrassing profile.

                          In their not too nice world, surely any A6 instigator would have engaged someone to eliminate our Peter one his behaviour became so unstable.

                          Alphon’s behaviour doesn’t give the impression he was living in fear of an assassin’s bullet.

                          Peter

                          Comment


                          • Hi Peter,

                            this has been suggested before on this thread, but it would seem that such a practical and sensible view of Alphon's actual and possible involvement cuts no ice with those who claim that he-dun-it. If anyone had decided to do in Gregsten (and possibly Storey) then I'm sure that he or she would have hired someone a damn sight more efficient and professional than either Hanratty or Alphon (to judge from the latter's general behaviour).

                            Probably the only thing Alphon lived in fear of was the curtailment of Jean Justice's largesse.

                            Cheers,

                            Graham
                            We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by RonIpstone View Post
                              The problem which the Hanratty supporters (Jimdidnotdoitites) have is that with semen encrusted knickers with the semen belonging to the rapist, the DNA of the rapist would have been detected. So that if there had been contamination the DNA of Hanratty as a contaminant would have been detected in addition to that of the actual rapist/murderer.

                              As far as I am able to establish no one versed in forensic DNA has suggested that this is plausible.
                              Exactly so, Ron. Some of us have been saying this for a long time, and not one of the Jimdidnotdoitites can suggest a plausible alternative explanation for the findings. And of course, the onus is on them to do so. Hanratty no longer has 'presumed innocent' status.

                              Originally posted by P.L.A View Post
                              I find it difficult to believe anyone hiring Alphon to sort Gregsten out would have then let the gunman keep such a high and embarrassing profile.

                              In their not too nice world, surely any A6 instigator would have engaged someone to eliminate our Peter one his behaviour became so unstable.
                              Exactly the same thing applies to the idea of anyone willingly handing over their precious hoaxed Jack the Ripper diary to a certain Mike Barrett, and giving him full responsibility for doing and saying whatever he liked about it. Nobody remotely street smart would have trusted the likes of Alphon with a murder conspiracy, nor the likes of Barrett with a ripper hoax conspiracy. It would have been daft in either case.

                              Love,

                              Caz
                              X
                              "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Graham View Post
                                Hi Peter,

                                this has been suggested before on this thread, but it would seem that such a practical and sensible view of Alphon's actual and possible involvement cuts no ice with those who claim that he-dun-it. If anyone had decided to do in Gregsten (and possibly Storey) then I'm sure that he or she would have hired someone a damn sight more efficient and professional than either Hanratty or Alphon (to judge from the latter's general behaviour).

                                Probably the only thing Alphon lived in fear of was the curtailment of Jean Justice's largesse.

                                Cheers,

                                Graham

                                I must confess I had to look up the meaning of that very rarely used word, Graham.

                                Largesse = "Liberality in bestowing gifts, especially in a lofty or condescending manner."

                                I trust you can provide examples/evidence of Jean Justice's "largesse" towards Peter Alphon, Graham. Along with plenty of others I'd be very interested to know what this consisted of.
                                I recall you saying some months back that you hadn't read either of Mr Justice's (what an apt name incidentally) books about the A6 murder.

                                Also, why would I withdraw my welcome to RonIpstone just because he believes Hanratty to be guilty ? Just like Steve, who no longer posts on this thread, he comes across as a very knowledgeable student of this murder mystery. Quite a mean spirited statement of yours, I would say.

                                Comment

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