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  • Morning chaps,

    Tony - re Bentley/Hanraaty's learning difficulties. Although the 'experts' from that time diagnosed Hanratty as being 'mentally defective' I believe he was actually an undiagnosed dylslexic with problems of an audio nature. This doesn't mean he couldn't hear properly, it means he had difficulty reproduing the sound/syllable realtionship in certain words when spelling and reading them. Thsi type of dyslexia is the most difficult to treat and manage. Now, dyslexia does not affect intelligence, but the frusration of having day-to-day difficulties with reading, writing and spelling often cause depression and sometime delinquency. However, when they find something they are good at, these dyslexics persue it to perfection - Hanratty was a very good house-breaker. He was also, I think , quite articulate, indicating that his intelligence was not that much impaired.

    Bentley is a different case entirely. He was a 19 year old with the mind of an eight year old or younger. His articulation was poor, his intelligence was impaired and he could not even hold down a job as a road cleaner. As graham and others has pointed out, he was in custody when the fatal shot was fired and it is very unlikely that he encouraged Craig to shoot the policeman with those words. It is almost certain he meant for Craig to give up the gun. Hanging Bentley was a miscarriage of justice and a vindictive act. Even the widow of the policeman who died did not want Bentley to hang.

    Ellis was guilty of premeditated murder. She refused to appeal and believed she should die for her crime. Maybe it was a form of 'suicide by police'. Again, she should not have hung but she deserved a long prison term.

    If Hanratty had of been cleared, found not guilty, under old laws it would not have been possible to do anything about the DNA evidence. However, the 'double jepody' law has been overturned so perhaps it would be possible to re-try him based on the DNA evidence?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Limehouse View Post
      If Hanratty had of been cleared, found not guilty, under old laws it would not have been possible to do anything about the DNA evidence. However, the 'double jepody' law has been overturned so perhaps it would be possible to re-try him based on the DNA evidence?
      Hi Limehouse

      Again, collecting the DNA would be the problem. The Hanratty family volunteered samples for analysis in the belief it would clear James’ name and prove he had been innocent all along. And of course when it came to collecting evidence from James himself he was in no position to object.

      If it was a matter of bringing James Hanratty to trial again the family would certainly have closed ranks knowing that he escaped justice in 1962 by the skin of his teeth. And if Hanratty knew himself to be guilty it would be very hard to persuade him to keep still long enough for a sample to be collected.

      On the other hand, there would have been a fair old chance that Hanratty would have continued in his criminal activities and the police would need only to wait for him to commit another crime and routinely collect the sample.

      Kind regards,
      Steve

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Steve View Post
        Hi Limehouse

        Again, collecting the DNA would be the problem. The Hanratty family volunteered samples for analysis in the belief it would clear James’ name and prove he had been innocent all along. And of course when it came to collecting evidence from James himself he was in no position to object.

        If it was a matter of bringing James Hanratty to trial again the family would certainly have closed ranks knowing that he escaped justice in 1962 by the skin of his teeth. And if Hanratty knew himself to be guilty it would be very hard to persuade him to keep still long enough for a sample to be collected.

        On the other hand, there would have been a fair old chance that Hanratty would have continued in his criminal activities and the police would need only to wait for him to commit another crime and routinely collect the sample.

        Kind regards,
        Steve
        Morning Steve,

        Got to go out in a few minutes but a quick response to the DNA question regarding James Hanratty.

        If he had been found not guilty and the ‘cold case squad’ got hold of the case and decided to reinvestigate didn’t they already have Hanratty’s DNA? In fact isn’t that what you are all saying finally proved him guilty in 2000?

        I presume there would have been more reason to keep any exhibits in an unsolved crime.

        Tony.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tony View Post
          didn’t they already have Hanratty’s DNA? In fact isn’t that what you are all saying finally proved him guilty in 2000?

          I presume there would have been more reason to keep any exhibits in an unsolved crime.
          Hi Tony

          They had the murderer's DNA - it needs Hanratty DNA to provide a match.

          KR
          Steve

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Steve View Post
            Hi Tony

            They had the murderer's DNA - it needs Hanratty DNA to provide a match.

            KR
            Steve
            Hi Steve,

            That was quick and of course you are correct. Thank you for correcting me.

            Tony.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Graham View Post
              I've always maintained that Alphon was a highly-accomplished actor....
              You could be right about this. Actors generally need a script to work from and perhaps Justice provided exactly the script that Alphon needed.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Steve View Post
                On the other hand, there would have been a fair old chance that Hanratty would have continued in his criminal activities and the police would need only to wait for him to commit another crime and routinely collect the sample.
                I think this is the most important point if he had not been found guilty. The police now collect a DNA sample from everyone who is arrested for every charge so it'd only be a matter of time before the DNA match was found.
                Truth is female, since truth is beauty rather than handsomeness; this [...] would certainly explain the saying that a lie could run around the world before Truth has got its, correction, her boots on, since she would have to chose which pair - the idea that any woman in a position to choose would have just one pair of boots being beyond rational belief.
                Unseen Academicals - Terry Pratchett.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Steve View Post
                  Hi Limehouse

                  Again, collecting the DNA would be the problem. The Hanratty family volunteered samples for analysis in the belief it would clear James’ name and prove he had been innocent all along. And of course when it came to collecting evidence from James himself he was in no position to object.

                  If it was a matter of bringing James Hanratty to trial again the family would certainly have closed ranks knowing that he escaped justice in 1962 by the skin of his teeth. And if Hanratty knew himself to be guilty it would be very hard to persuade him to keep still long enough for a sample to be collected.

                  On the other hand, there would have been a fair old chance that Hanratty would have continued in his criminal activities and the police would need only to wait for him to commit another crime and routinely collect the sample.

                  Kind regards,
                  Steve
                  Good points Steve. I don't know what planet I was on when I was writing this morning. My brain was obviously still in bed and my fingers were on back to front looking at those typing errors!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Steve View Post
                    You could be right about this. Actors generally need a script to work from and perhaps Justice provided exactly the script that Alphon needed.
                    Hi Steve,

                    Again, it's all down to the A6 Case Magical Coincidences. Justice wanted to throw mud in the face of the Establishment, Alphon saw an opportunity to make some personal gain, and the pair of them could have been made for one another. Without Justice, Alphon might have been trying to tout whatever 'story' he had to the press; without Alphon, Justice would have been just another upper-crust trouble-maker. I think it's ironic that, at the end of the day, neither of them really profited. Justice died in poverty (compared with his former lavish life-style) and Alphon just seemed to return to the half-world he formerly inhabited, living off his wits and whatever skill he had as a gambler. Maybe in other circumstances Alphon could really have been someone special; but his world was the shady world of post-war living on the dingy streets, and he was good at it. I think Jean Justice was just plain bored.

                    Cheers,

                    Graham
                    We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                    Comment


                    • Hi Graham

                      Justice probably became involved in the A6 murder case for the same reasons that we are all interested in the case, its many complexities and as you call them magical coincidences. The difference between us and Justice is that he was fortunate enough to have attended the trial and to have been interested at a time when the major players were still alive and contactable. We would all, I am sure, wish to have been in that position. From my own point of view I have the added interest of the timing on the A6 murder case at the start of the 1960s when society was changing in a truly significant way.

                      Yes, the A6 murder and the Alphon/Hanratty coincidences gave Justice the opportunity to throw mud in the face of the establishment which I guess he was keen to do because of his own academic shortcomings. Also because he clearly was a misfit in 1960s society when homosexuality was not tolerated any way as nearly as it is today.

                      Alphon and Hanratty were certainly half-parallels in London life of the time and time has proven contemporary newspaper reports that the A6 murderer had a double leading a parallel life to be correct in that regard. The differences are of course that Hanratty was an active criminal engaging in life’s pleasures through his affluence as a result of criminal activity whilst Alphon wandered through London as an innocent abroad. When he found himself the centre of attention in 1961 and 1962 he milked it for all he could. Who can blame him, and who would not have done the same, especially with the thespian leanings you have highlighted?

                      Kind regards,
                      Steve

                      Comment


                      • Hi Steve,

                        Not sure if an 'innocent abroad' is a proper description of our Peter...to me he seems anything but innocent. Given his taste for aliases, I wonder if in fact we know him anywhere near as well as we think. I'm sure he wasn't as overt a criminal as JH, but I'm equally sure that he didn't support himself merely by selling Old Moore's Almanac or by scrounging off his mother. The Alexandra Court Hotel wasn't quite so down-market as The Vienna, and although it seems he was not above doing a runner without paying his bill, I'm pretty sure that at least some of the time he lived well and lived legally.

                        It was suggested by someone I know that perhaps it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Alphon was some kind of semi-professional political activist. In a way, that makes good sense. There was much more to him than his being just a kind of unattached wandering drifter, that's for sure.

                        Cheers,

                        Graham
                        We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                        Comment


                        • Hi Graham,

                          Interesting point about Alphon perhaps being a kind of semi-professional political activist. Maybe he was like 'Lonely' from the programme 'Callan'!!

                          Comment


                          • Callan

                            Hi Limehouse

                            Callan - one of my all-time favourites! Right from seeing the original Armchair Theatre one-off drama in about 1967 I was hooked - it was Edward Woodward's great acting ability, together with James Mitchell's scripts that made this series so good.

                            KR
                            Steve

                            Comment


                            • Hi Graham

                              I see Alphon as a feckless drifter, not any kind of political activist. I think he made up all that nonsense for the benefit of the police.

                              KR
                              Steve

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Steve View Post
                                Hi Limehouse

                                Callan - one of my all-time favourites! Right from seeing the original Armchair Theatre one-off drama in about 1967 I was hooked - it was Edward Woodward's great acting ability, together with James Mitchell's scripts that made this series so good.

                                KR
                                Steve
                                Morning Steve,

                                1960’s candidate for the worst joke ever.

                                Q: What do you call a man with a wooden head?
                                A: Edwood.

                                Q: What do you call a man with 3 wooden heads?
                                A: Edwood Woodwood.

                                I need to get out more.

                                Tony.

                                Comment

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