a6 murder

[Limehouse]

I've just noticed that Ronnie Biggs is on that death list and his occupation is listed as Ambassador. Hmm.

They also list Claud Levi-Strauss as a scientist when in fact he is an anthropologist and the father of that great modern meta-narrative - structuralism.

[Tony]

Yes he was.

[Tony]

I've just noticed that Ronnie Biggs is on that death list and his occupation is listed as Ambassador. Hmm.

They also list Claud Levi-Strauss as a scientist when in fact he is an anthropologist and the father of that great modern meta-narrative - structuralism.

Hiya Limehouse,

And Michael Foot's occupation is listed as TRAMP. No doubt reference the donkey jacket at the Cenotaph.

Tony.

[Tony]

Hi Steve,

I have always maintained that this was actually a Duffle coat and not a donkey jacket. The incident was used as a ploy to get him out of the way, as he was a serious threat to Thatcher. I can't believe that ordinary people thought this was a good reason why he should not be Prime Minister, but I shouldn't be surprised, since someone I know voted Tory because she thought John Major was a dencently dressed and well-spoken man! What Foot really needed was a 'life coach' who would advise him on what to wear and how to moderate his voice to suit the audience. That's what Thatcher did.

Tony,

That sounds similar to a game played by some of the women at my workplace who take bets on who will get a boob job or a face lift next. They sit huddled over OK magazine ohhing and ahhing over dresses and shoes and bags.


Can anyone confirm that Paul Foot was in fact, Michael Foot's nephew?

My post 1142 which simply read:
“Yes he was” was in reply to the question: “Was Paul Foot the nephew of Michael Foot?”
Another post came in quicker which made mine sound stupid.

Tony

[Limehouse]

Thanks for confimring the Paul/Michael Foot connection Tony. I understtod the 'yes he was' post, so don't worry, you didn't appear stupid.

[Steve]

Yes, Limehouse, they were uncle and nephew.

(Sorry my computer had gone to sleep and I didn't see Tony's replies!)

[Limehouse]

Brilliant, thanks chaps. Right, no more talk of socks (white or otherwise), duffle coats, donkey jackets or unrelated political matters - promise.

[JIMBOW]

Hi Jimbow,

Great to hear from you. I look forward to exchanging ideas and views with you.

Do you know, Canada is the one and only country that could get me living outside the UK. I don't know why but it's the only one that appeals to me.

Thanks for the welcome, Limehouse and, yes, Canada is a beautiful country in many respects but can be quite .... boring!! To say nothing about cold!! So let's say nothing about it then!

Tell me, what do you think is the source of the fascination that so many people still have (witness this forum) with this murder so many years after the events in question? I sometimes think that perhaps it was viewed as quite gruesome by early-60s standards but then I remind myself that that isn't even quite true; were the Saddleworth Moor Murders (Brady/Hindley) not much more horrific and at about the same time? And, certainly, subsequent grotesque murders such as those by the monsters West and Peter Sutcliffe make this one pale in comparison.

Maybe it's the long list of 'interesting' (to use a neutral term!) characters and coincidences that seem to run through the whole thing. I especially like the idea of the Cockney 'spivs' and all that, going 'dahn the Rehearsal Club' etc. Reminds me of a great 1963 movie, 'The Small World of Sammy Lee', starring the late Anthony Newley.

Cheers,
Jim

[Steve]

Peter Sutcliffe make this one pale in comparison.

Sutcliffe and the Yorkshire Ripper enquiry had a huge impact on society at the time. I well remember an evening out in a Bradford city centre restaurant when it seemed like a ghost town; people just didn't go out!

[Limehouse]

Thanks for the welcome, Limehouse and, yes, Canada is a beautiful country in many respects but can be quite .... boring!! To say nothing about cold!! So let's say nothing about it then!

Tell me, what do you think is the source of the fascination that so many people still have (witness this forum) with this murder so many years after the events in question? I sometimes think that perhaps it was viewed as quite gruesome by early-60s standards but then I remind myself that that isn't even quite true; were the Saddleworth Moor Murders (Brady/Hindley) not much more horrific and at about the same time? And, certainly, subsequent grotesque murders such as those by the monsters West and Peter Sutcliffe make this one pale in comparison.

Maybe it's the long list of 'interesting' (to use a neutral term!) characters and coincidences that seem to run through the whole thing. I especially like the idea of the Cockney 'spivs' and all that, going 'dahn the Rehearsal Club' etc. Reminds me of a great 1963 movie, 'The Small World of Sammy Lee', starring the late Anthony Newley.

Cheers,
Jim

Hi Jimbow,

For me, interest in the A6 murder stems from my original conviction that Hanratty was innocent. This is something I grew up with - it was widely believed in my circles that Hanratty was innocent. My brother, 8 years older, had a bit of a thing about the case. I was far too young to remember the actual event - but I have a vague memory of the newspaper headlines and Hanratty's picture - but perhaps that memory stems from seeing artrticles about the crime long after Hanratty was executed.

As a child and young person, the Moors Murders just sent a shiver of horror through me. They still do. The crimes were completely different from the A6 crime - which in itself was horrific but in a different way.

When Peter Sutcliffe was murdering women in the north of England, I was a teenager down south, feeling glad I wasn't up north. For the earlier part of Sutcliffe's 'career' I was courting a nice boy and rarely had to walk home alone at night. By the time of Sutcliffe's capture, I was with the chap who is now my husband and again, didn't have to walk about at nigh alone, except to get home from work. However, I felt anger and injustice at some of the things said to women in those days - for example, women should not walk around at night alone or women should not go out dressed in short skirts to avoid being murdered or attacked!

In the early 80s, I got home from work one evening and settled down in front of the news. A reporter was pictured standing in front of a house in a street that looked familar. I was living in Crouch End and the reporter was a quarter of a mile away in Cranley Gardens, near Muswell Hill. Parts of bodies had been found in the drains of a house in multiple occupation. A man had been arrested. It was, of course, Dennis Nilsen. I later found out he sometimes drank in the Black Cap public house, a few doors away from where I was working in Camden High Street.

I think we are all, to some extent, both horrified but fascinated by murder. The popularity of TV shows that deal with murder confirms this.

[Steve]

Hi Lmehouse

Great post and I truly understand your comments about Sutcliffe and Nilsen. I have similar personal situations with both of them in that I was living in the same area they were at the time of their crimes, and in the case of Nilsen regularly drove past his house!

Kind regards,
Steve

[simon]

Hello all,
Are we absolutely sure that none of the jury has spoken ? I seem to remember one of them with something to say, amongst the TV programmes I recorded. Perhaps I'm mistaken ? Oh God...I'm going to have to trawl through videotape again, aren't I.....

Simon

[Steve]

Hi Simon

Not certain, I cannot recall ever seeing a jury member being interviewed on any of the taped programmes I have, but I don't have all of the programmes on tape.

KR
Steve

[Tony]

Hello all,
Are we absolutely sure that none of the jury has spoken ? I seem to remember one of them with something to say, amongst the TV programmes I recorded. Perhaps I'm mistaken ? Oh God...I'm going to have to trawl through videotape again, aren't I.....

Simon

Yes.

Tony

[Tony]

Valerie's evidence

It seems to me that a lot of the contributors to this thread state that their doubts have been dispelled by the fact that the evidence and total commitment by Valerie Storie was absolute. She has never wavered in her belief that Hanratty was the murderer. And to be fair she hasn’t.

Let us briefly examine this evidence:

She admitted she got the very briefest of glimpses of the gunman. Her eyesight was very poor.
Her first description of the killer to John Kerr went missing and when ‘it’ did turn up Kerr said it was not what he had written in fact it wasn’t even his handwriting. He said she told him the killer had fair hair and brown eyes. At the time Hanratty’s hair was dyed black and his eyes were blue.
At the first identity parade she picked out an entirely different and innocent man. At the very least a picture of this man should have been made available to the defence. It wasn’t. It would be intresting to know the colour of this man's eyes. Does anyone know?
Before the second identity parade she told Acott her recollection of the man was fading (again not revealed to the defence)
She asked the members of the ID parade to speak. It seems possible if not probable that Hanratty was the only cockney on the Parade. She would have known the suspect had dyed hair. Hanratty’s died hair was growing out. She took a long time to ID him.
The first identikit picture compiled by Valerie looked very much like a Mr Alphon.
Although identikits were in black and white you are, apparently, shown the ropes by the expert compiler (well you must be). He would say, even though it would be published in black and white,
such a number is for brown eyes, such a number is for green eyes, such a number is for blue eyes and so on.
There were 104 codings for types of eyes. The identikit picture had code E49 eyes which depicts dark eyes. E10 illustrates blue eyes. Why were E49 eyes used to describe Hanratty if he was the killer?

I wouldn’t like to be hanged on the basis of that. Contributors to this thread are saying.
“Oh the jury saw through Hanratty and were persuaded by Valerie’s unwavering evidence”

Sorry not enough for me.

Tony.