a6 murder

[Steve]

I have to say, I do have a soft spot for Blackpool, Fleetwood just up the coast is a pleasant place to visit and I have occasionally spent a night or two in The North Euston Hotel, which is nothing like any of the hotels I have stayed at in Las Vegas! The problem from my point of view with Las Vegas is that its two main industries are ones I have no interest in whatsover. I think everyone should visit Vegas once in their lives, but its not somewhere I would choose to visit again and I only ever go there for business reasons.

[Graham]

I have to say, I do have a soft spot for Blackpool, Fleetwood just up the coast is a pleasant place to visit and I have occasionally spent a night or two in The North Euston Hotel, which is nothing like any of the hotels I have stayed at in Las Vegas! The problem from my point of view with Las Vegas is that its two main industries are ones I have no interest in whatsover. I think everyone should visit Vegas once in their lives, but its not somewhere I would choose to visit again and I only ever go there for business reasons.

I lived and worked in the USA for a number of years and it never even crossed my mind to go to Las Vegas. I've never been to Blackpool, either...seaside holidays when I was a nipper were Devon or Cornwall.

Cheers,

Graham

[Tony]

I lived and worked in the USA for a number of years and it never even crossed my mind to go to Las Vegas. I've never been to Blackpool, either...seaside holidays when I was a nipper were Devon or Cornwall.

Cheers,

Graham

Hi Graham,

Devon or Cornwall? You obviously came from a posh family. We had to put up with Rhyl and Blackpool. Bit like JH I suppose.

Tony

[jimarilyn]

Devon or Cornwall? You obviously came from a posh family. We had to put up with Rhyl and Blackpool. Bit like JH I suppose.

Hi Tony,

A bit like me too. The ferry across to New Brighton and day trips to Southport and Blackpool. Strangely enough although I'd passed through it a couple or so times I'd never actually set foot in Rhyl until early 1994 by which time I was 41 years old.

I thought the same thing too about James Hanratty, it definitely would appear he had a predilection (excuse the posh term) for funfairs (Battersea, Rhyl, New Brighton and Blackpool to mention just seven). Being a Liverpudlian I'm very familiar with the places Hanratty went to on the occasions he visited Liverpool. Scottie Road (Scotland Road) is only 3 and a half miles from my home, Lime Street Station is 5 miles away, Bankhall just over 3 miles away and New Brighton about 7 miles away.

Jean Justice's 2nd book on the A6 Murder "Le crime de la route A6" published in France (there's that name again !) in 1968 has just arrived in today's mail. It's much longer (341 pages) than his earlier effort of 1964 "Murder vs. Murder" and contains some interesting photos that I've never seen before.

[Tony]

Hello Jimarilyn,

Nice to see you back.

Why do you think the jury was out so long? If as Graham and Steve suggest they saw through Hanratty’s lies then just what exactly were they discussing. As far as I know, and as always I stand to be corrected, no one on that jury has ever said a word about what took place in the jury room.
Were the rules different in those days? I only mention this because the foreman of the jury in The Carl Bridgewater Case was the only juror to go back to court after the verdict as he wanted to see justice handed out; he later, after reading Paul Foot’s book Murder at the Farm and watching the drama based on that book, came on TV and said he had changed his mind and that he wanted the case to be reviewed.

I presume most of Hanratty’s jurors were still alive when Foot published his book on the case; but as I say not a peep. It seems strange, as according to Steve, it is very easy to be beguiled by Foot and Woffinden into believing that Hanratty was innocent of the crime.

Tony.

[jason w]

Tony,

I guess that despite the persuasive nature of Foot's book they all felt correct in their decision to convict Hanratty.

Jason

[Tony]

Tony,

I guess that despite the persuasive nature of Foot's book they all felt correct in their decision to convict Hanratty.

Jason

Hi Jason,

Or perhaps they thought: “what the hell have we done?” and decided to keep their heads down.

Tony

[jimarilyn]

Hello Jimarilyn,

Nice to see you back.

Why do you think the jury was out so long? If as Graham and Steve suggest they saw through Hanratty’s lies then just what exactly were they discussing. As far as I know, and as always I stand to be corrected, no one on that jury has ever said a word about what took place in the jury room.
Were the rules different in those days? I only mention this because the foreman of the jury in The Carl Bridgewater Case was the only juror to go back to court after the verdict as he wanted to see justice handed out; he later, after reading Paul Foot’s book Murder at the Farm and watching the drama based on that book, came on TV and said he had changed his mind and that he wanted the case to be reviewed.

I presume most of Hanratty’s jurors were still alive when Foot published his book on the case; but as I say not a peep. It seems strange, as according to Steve, it is very easy to be beguiled by Foot and Woffinden into believing that Hanratty was innocent of the crime.

Tony.

Hi Tony,

9 hours and 48 minutes by jury standards is a pretty long time. Some of the 11 jurors must have initially had strong doubts about Hanratty's guilt. Perhaps the nominated chairman (self-nominated perhaps) of the jury was much more vociferous than the rest and did a good "sales job" on the more reluctant buyers.

At one stage the jury asked if they could have a trial transcript. This was denied them which seems very strange considering a man's life was at stake. There was obviously some witness testimony and evidence which they wished to refresh themselves with. During the 21 days of the trial there must have been a plenty of testimony that had faded from their minds.

British justice, alas, in those days seemed in an undue hurry for a hanging. Thank GOD capital punishment was abolished in this country a couple or so years later. Too late for the likes of James Hanratty, George Kelly, Derek Bentley and a few others.

[larue]

It’s unlikely that anyone knew that Hanratty was in Blackpool before the arrest, and Hanratty would have been on his best behaviour knowing that he was a wanted man, so if a tip-off did take place it had to be from someone who recognised him. That could only really have been the people at the guest house, someone at the Stevonia or a passer-by who spotted him making the short walk between the two places.

hi Steve

this means then, if i understand you correctly, that the id would have been from one of the identikit pictures?

this seems to me like a wild shot in the dark, as either image posseses only the vaguest likeness. were these pics still being widely circulated at the time of the arrest?

i find it much easier to believe someone shopped him. dixie, for instance.

one things for sure, the chances of two detectives just happening to be passing and homing in on england's most wanted man, is to me as convincing as janet gregsten's 'intuition'

[Graham]

Regarding jurors revealing in public what went on in the jury-room, they ain't supposed to do it. I don't know if it's actually a criminal offence these days.

With regard to Hanratty, I would suspect that most of the debate by the jury was concerning Valerie Storie's identification, and her evidence. Also, one hopes, the various dubious actions of the police. I don't think it was a question of seeing through JH's lies, but changing his alibi without any doubt at all was a major mistake. The jury would have been very adversely impressed by that.

Larue,

Re: the Stevonia, as I said in a previous post, JH's photo had been in the press and on TV by the time he was arrested. But there's no way that was just a coincidental identification and arrest. No chance.

Cheers,

Graham

[jimarilyn]

Larue,

Re: the Stevonia, as I said in a previous post, JH's photo had been in the press and on TV by the time he was arrested. But there's no way that was just a coincidental identification and arrest. No chance.

Cheers,

Graham

Hanratty's photo had not been in the press and on TV by the time of his arrest.

[jimarilyn]

Aerial view of Deadman's Hill, Maulden

For those familiar with Deadman's Hill, is the circled "X" anywhere near the spot where Michael Gregsten's body was found or am I way off ?

[Tony]

Regarding jurors revealing in public what went on in the jury-room, they ain't supposed to do it. I don't know if it's actually a criminal offence these days.

With regard to Hanratty, I would suspect that most of the debate by the jury was concerning Valerie Storie's identification, and her evidence. Also, one hopes, the various dubious actions of the police. I don't think it was a question of seeing through JH's lies, but changing his alibi without any doubt at all was a major mistake. The jury would have been very adversely impressed by that.

Larue,

Re: the Stevonia, as I said in a previous post, JH's photo had been in the press and on TV by the time he was arrested. But there's no way that was just a coincidental identification and arrest. No chance.

Cheers,

Graham

Hello Graham,

I doubt if it has ever been illegal for jurors to discuss the case after the case has been concluded.
Evidence the fact that the Bridgewater Four were convicted in November 1979 and the jury foreman, Tim O’Malley appeared on News at Ten on 2nd June 1993 to renounce the verdict and nothing happened to him.
Mind you a certain Mr Alphon went on TV to say the A6 murder trial had resulted in the wrong man being hanged. How did he know this? Because he said he did it. Nothing happened to him either.
Let sleeping or hanged dogs lie.

Tony.

By the way I can’t find the information at the moment but Nimmo was asked to investigate a possible miscarriage of justice in the A6 case and I am sure he was himself involved in another miscarriage of justice or something a bit dodgy. Can anyone help?

[Steve]

hi Steve

i find it much easier to believe someone shopped him. dixie, for instance.

Hi Larue

Did Dixie know that Hanratty was in Blackpool? I get the impression that he went there on a whim and found a boarding house at random. It's unlikely that anyone back in London had the faintest idea where he was.

KR
Steve

[Steve]

Mind you a certain Mr Alphon went on TV to say the A6 murder trial had resulted in the wrong man being hanged. How did he know this? Because he said he did it. Nothing happened to him either.

Hi Tony

Yes, and he was well paid for making his confession, complete with elementary mistakes which made sure that no-one who knew about the case really believed the confession.

KR
Steve