a6 murder

[larue]

one more post re the dna, [without wishing to appear vulgar] then i shall shut up...



the mepo lab found two semen stains on vs's underwear. one blood type type o secretor. one blood type type a. the second stain was assumed to belong to gregsten.

gregsten was a married man with a family he could not afford, hence the selling of his own car. he had had several affairs, the last with vs, who was single. as a single girl, vs would not have been able to get the pill in 1961. vs said she expected the affair to peter out over the next few months.

were gregsten and vs stupid enough to have a sexual affair without using condoms? what would have happened if vs had become pregnant by gregsten, especially as she saw no future in the affair? was she the type of girl that would risk the stigma of an unmarried pregnancy, in 1961?

the 2002 dna test was only carried out on a small portion of the underwear that contained only one semen sample, so as it was established by the mepo lab that the whole undergarment showed two semen stains, how can such reliance be placed on the triumphant finding of only one? most of that piece of evidence, ie the undergarment no longer exists, and the second stain went with it.

if they were taking sensible precautions, which i would have thought very reasonable under the circumstances, the chances of gregsten's semen getting on vs underwear would be as close to nil as to make no difference. that being the case, then whose was the second stain?

[Steve]

She wasn’t absolutely convinced at this first ID parade about Hanratty then because she didn’t pick him out and obviously she couldn’t because he wasn’t there. But she did pick someone out so she couldn’t have been that certain of Hanratty at all.
As there were 12 men on the ID parade the odds were 11 to 1 against her picking Alphon but just suppose, and we know she made a mistake once, just suppose she picked out Alphon. Acott would have said: “well done Valerie that’s our suspect”.
Charge, trial and execution of said Mr Alphon. Then somebody writes a book saying it wasn’t Alphon but a two bit crook called Hanratty. Do you think 40 years on Miss Storie would be saying; “I’ve settled my score with Alphon, I was in the car with him. I know it was him”?

Hi Tony

I’ve said it here on more than one occasion that Alphon was lucky not to have been hanged for the A6 murder, if Valerie had picked him out on the parade he would certainly have been charged.

Kind regards,
Steve

[P.L.A]

DNA (Yet more layman drivel)

I know next to nothing about DNA, but I don’t usually let minor trivialities like that get in the way of anything.

Hanratty was blood group O
Alphon was blood group O
Gregsten was blood group AB

Semen from groups O and AB were found on Valerie’s underwear. The AB deposit was assumed to have come from Mike.

The part of the knickers containing O group semen was cut from the garment and preserved. This meant that the DNA scientists didn’t have the complete item to analyse. Their tests revealed Hanratty’s DNA in the area of the blood group O semen.

The handkerchief is more interesting. The complete item was available for LCN DNA analysis. The scientists found Hanratty’s profile in the area where nasal fluids were deposited. But there was no DNA anywhere else on the fabric. Unless the gunman wore gloves whilst bowing his nose, one assumes there would have been contact DNA on other parts of the hankerchief in 1961. Forty years later this had deteriorated to such an extent as to be undetectable, even by LCN techniques.
Does this mean that contact transfer seriously decays on cloth over four decades?
If so, does the whole question of contact contamination so long ago, which would be weaker than handling, go out the window?

Don’t know. Maybe the contact was with the nasal fluids and not the fabric, with the mucus retaining the DNA, unlike cloth.

The Appeal Court didn’t believe that contamination DNA could be so much stronger than a primary deposit on both garments so as to render the original deposits totally undetectable. If they were wrong on this count, they added that it would be amazing that the contamination occurred on both exhibits in exactly the same places as the original.

Peter

[P.L.A]

Why plan to frame Hanratty?

I have difficulty seeing that conspirators aiming to commit capital murder and frame somebody, wouldn’t be 100% certain that the fall guy wouldn’t have any sort of alibi. As it was, close to the crime, Hanratty’s associates thought he was going to Liverpool to see his aunt, thus giving him an alibi. A plot to commit a hanging offence can’t have thought this to be satisfactory if framing him was an integral part of the plan.

My feeling is that any plan to commit such a serious crime and get the finger pointed at Hanratty would have been doing things to ensure he didn’t have an alibi.

Trying to plan an abduction when not knowing what Mike and Val were going to do too much in advance, and tying it in with the whereabouts of a person who didn’t know what he was going to do till he had done it, seems problematic.

With all these difficulties, why try to frame Hanratty, why not pick on someone else?
Why was it so important to frame this particular person and not just have a good plan that ensured the gunman’s escape?

If the hired assassin had started to become an embarrassment , I’m sure the conspirators wouldn’t have thought twice about getting rid of him as well.

Peter

[P.L.A]

Ryan becomes Hanratty

In the sixties it was assumed that from what he said in the car and his accent, the police believed the gunman to be a London based petty crook.

Once they had the name Ryan from the hotel register, as one article of the time said “…. Any rookie copper worth his salt would have had contacts to tell him that Ryan was Hanratty.” The belief was that one such contact said Ryan was an associate of France, and Dixie told them it was Hanratty.

Acott and Oxford were very coy about how the link was made and in later years the former superintendent was less than truthful about it. Yet this was about the only public statement he made about the case in retirement.

One very strange point is that Hanratty returned from Ireland on 11th September and went straight to see Dixie – so he knew his friend was back. But Acott went to the Emerald Isle in late September, supposedly to hunt his quarry. I’ve always wondered whether France really went to Scotland Yard on 26th September with a postcard from Ireland. From what I can remember, this came out from Mrs. France in about 1966 when the Sunday Times interviewed her. She was uncertain of the date, but the reporters helper her to pinpoint it – but this was five years after the event. I’m not sure the event ever took place.

I’ve always found this aspect of the case to be totally unfathomable.

I’m sure that once Ryan became Hanratty, the police would have been watching the family home, Dixie’s flat and the Rehearsal Club.

Peter.

[jimarilyn]

Fictitious train journey from Paddington to Slough

The following can't be underestimated.

It was James Hanratty himself who mentioned the fact that after leaving the Vienna Hotel he went to Paddington Station instead of Euston. If he had had anything to hide he would have stated that he went straight to Euston station and not even mentioned Paddington.

There's a couple of posters on this thread ( a mutual admiration society it very much seems ) who have claimed that Hanratty took a train from Paddington to Slough that morning, which means that he would have been in the Slough area for about 10 or 11 hours before the encounter with Michael Gregsten and Valerie Storie. Yet not one solitary person has ever come forward to say that they spotted Hanratty during these daylight hours (indeed not one person has testified to seeing Hanratty anywhere in the London area between about 10am on Tuesday 22nd August 1961 and about 8am on Friday 25th August 1961).

Other people have testified that they saw Alphon in the Slough area (which he was very familiar with) on that Tuesday. So if nobody saw Hanratty in that area that day it's because he wasn't there, it's as simple as that. Was he "The Invisible Man" ?

[Tony]

Innocent or Guilty?

Well there have been a couple of posts recently still supporting Hanratty.

Until about a fortnight ago and since 1971 I was totally convinced of Hanratty’s innocence. I was sceptical of the DNA. I understand the people who have changed their minds from innocent to guilty and today I have read through the Court of Appeal’s findings. It seems to be a convincing argument against Hanratty and although I am reluctantly swaying towards guilty I still want some questions answered.
There are just too many ridiculous incidents and coincidences to just convict on DNA that may be flawed.
I must say that I became more than a little obsessed with the case and to have your beliefs dashed after so long is hard to take; in fact it is surprisingly upsetting
This weekend I am going away for a week with my grandchildren but whilst I am away I am going to make some notes that I require answering. After that I will finally decide.
See you all soon,

Tony.

[Steve]

Hanratty's Town

I posted this on the old thread. New members might find it interesting:

The circumstances surrounding the Vienna Hotel’s involvement in the A6 murder case are very interesting.

Apart from the obvious Alphon aspect to the case, the Vienna featured prominently only because Hanratty decided that it was too late to travel to Liverpool after his very busy Monday and asked a taxi driver to take him to a hotel. He probably requested a hotel near Euston Station, which would be the reason he ended up at The Broadway House Hotel.

Had he stayed at The Broadway House all he had to do the following morning was walk briskly along Marylebone Road, past Madame Tussaud’s (that would have been ironic has it has turned out) and there was Euston Station pretty much straight in front of him.

As it happened the Broadway House was full on that Monday night, but another hotel in the group had a vacancy. That was The Vienna. So Hanratty spent the night in Maida Vale. The next morning he left the hotel and headed for the train station and, apparently, he found himself at Paddington. Quite easy to get there, a relatively short walk from The Vienna; just go down Warwick Avenue and there is the huge Paddington canopy right in your line of vision.

But he really intended to go to Euston Station and take a train to Liverpool. This was his stated intention, and he also stated that realising his mistake he took a taxi from Paddington to Euston, and subsequently travelled to Liverpool which would have then exonerated him from involvement in the murder.

If you are still with me, consider this. In 1961 Hanratty was living in a city he knew intimately; this was Hanratty’s town. He had lived there all of his adult life (with the exception of extensive absences at Her Majesty’s Pleasure) and would have known where the train stations were, and which services they provided. He told his brother at the dog track, ‘wait here, I’ll nip down The Rehearsal, someone owes me’ and off he went to collect cash. This was His Town.

There can be little doubt; he would have known the difference between Euston and Paddington.

Finding himself in Maida Vale on Tuesday morning, he would have known where Euston was geographically. Going to Paddington mistakenly is difficult to believe; the probable truth is that he went to Paddington because it was the nearest main station to where he spent the night. And that would be why he was in Slough!

Another interesting aspect to ‘Hanratty’s Town’ is that The Vienna’s location in Maida Vale places it very close to where Dixie France lived. It was just a short walk from Dixie’s home to The Vienna. Perhaps if Hanratty knew that he would be spending the night in Maida Vale he would have chosen to stay with the France’s. On that point we will never know.

However, The Vienna’s location just a short distance from Dixie’s home increases the possibility that Dixie went to the hotel to plant the spent cartridges in the room, room 24, that he knew Hanratty had slept in the night before the murder. It could even be that he was simply peeved that Hanratty chose to stay in a hotel virtually on his doorstep rather than accept his own hospitality – I don’t believe this, but we shouldn’t rule anything out.

What is absolutely certain is that if that taxi driver had taken Hanratty to a different hotel near Euston Station the course of history might well have been changed!

Kind regards,
Steve

[Graham]

I've lost count of the number of times I've re-read Foot, Woffinden and Miller (plus a few other books on the case) and the more I read the more I appreciate just how complicated this case was. I don't think that there's any doubt that had JH actually killed Valerie Storie the A6 Case would still be un-solved (so long as JH had the sense to keep his trap shut...). But thankfully he didn't kill her, she identified him and she's stuck to that ID for 46 years.

I have to be honest and confess that although IMHO JH was guilty, I can't put my hand on my heart and say I'm one hundred per-cent sure. 99.9% certain, but not quite 100%. There are just too many question-marks. The more you dig, the deeper the hole becomes if you see what I mean. There is still almost certainly unreleased information about this Case locked away in some dusty old file, as I've said before - whether that information really would throw any new light on what actually happened, I just don't know. I would also love to see a statement from the Hanratty Family legal people regarding their current feelings and if they really do now feel that the case is closed.

Keep the posts coming!

Cheers,

Graham

[Graham]

Hi Steve,

Our posts crossed!

Good stuff about the Vienna Hotel and JH's knowledge of London (mine is about zero), but, unless I misunderstood you, for France to plant the shells at the Vienna would mean that JH must have given them to him. Or maybe he gave France the gun, still containing spent cartridge-cases, to dispose of, and for whatever reason (self-preservation?) France chose to incriminate JH by (a) putting the gun under the back seat of the 36A bus and (b) planting the cases at the Vienna where he knew JH had stayed. I once suggested that JH got the gun + the ammo from France in the first place - a suggestion for which I have absolutely no evidence - so could it be that JH, by now thoroughly scared since Valerie Storie was still alive, forced France to take the gun back? Maybe he threatened France with something nasty if he, France, refused? If it could have been proved that the gun came from France, then France could well have found himself in the dock as an accessory to murder. Or am I over-complicating things here?

The suggestion that Acott made the Ryan-Hanratty link via France has never been admitted to or proven, but I'd say it was highly likely and that Acott leaned very, very heavily on poor Dixie. I think Dixie must have been shaking in his shoes once he realised what his mate Jim had done.

Cheers,

Graham

[P.L.A]

The Rhyl Alibi

Hanratty was extensively questioned in the condemned cell at Bedford by Home Office officials about his supposed stay in Rhyl. They were unable to move forward in relation to his claim.

In the four month period between his arrest and trial, Hanratty had little else to do but lie on his prison bed, staring at the ceiling trying to recall details of his trip to north Wales. Not being hung was a pretty good incentive for his memory to come good. Don’t know what time Grace Jones allowed her guests back into the house after breakfast, but he had a fair few hours to account for in the town.

Hanratty knew he was wanted for the murder about six weeks after the crime. So his mind didn’t have to go too far back.

If he had stayed at Ingledene for two nights, then it’s almost impossible to believe that he didn’t notice the Windsor hotel smack bang in front of Mrs. Jones’s B&B on the other side of the road.

There has never been a satisfactory explanation as to why our Jim went to Blackpool from Manchester, and didn’t try to retrace his trip to the north Wales resort.

Witnesses to the identity parades testify that he was petrified, so he was hardly likely to have been coolly assessing his options as Woffinden would have us believe. Acott said that he was one of the most frightened individuals he had ever interviewed.

His recollection of the Hotel Vienna was pretty good, he even remembered the number of the room he had stayed in.


Peter.

[Graham]

It should be remembered that not one of the Rhyl witnesses who claimed to have seen Hanratty at the crucial time gave evidence that could be confirmed. Joe Gilbanks spoke to quite a few, but was unable to state categorically that any of their statements could be proven beyond doubt. Maybe it was a case of people seeing Hanratty's face in the papers and on TV and thinking, "Wow, I've seen him somewhere!" Maybe it was also a case of some people fancying a bit of celebrity. It's very revealing that after the trial Grace Jones flatly refused to speak to Gilbanks when he was in Rhyl trying to make a case for an alibi. And then there was the newpaper seller, Charlie Jones, who stated that he'd seen Hanratty on the evening of the 22nd (but at an impossible time), and who later admitted under pressure from Insp. Nimmo that Terry Evans put him up to it.

Terry Evans seems to have genuinely liked Hanratty, and to his credit made an effort to support the 'Rhyl Alibi', but to no avail.

I can remember spending a week's holiday in Rhyl with my parents, when I was about 14 and the hormones were coming to the boil. Don't want to knock the place too hard, but apart from pubs and amusement arcades (which wouldn't let me in anyway), there was nothing else to do! Except squat on a deckchair well wrapped-up against the gale. No wonder Hanratty had problems accounting for how he spent his time there....

Cheers,

Graham

[Tony]

Afternoon Graham,

Guess what? I used to go to Rhyl for my holidays nearly every year and I recall it’s just how you described it. I remember my parents dragging me round to see Mrs Jones’s B&B on Kinmel Street but I can’t remember anything about it. I wonder if people still go and take photos of it.
As an aside you mention Inspector Nimmo and I need you to refresh my memory here. Wasn’t he involved in another miscarriage of justice case? Also was Kenneth Oxford involved in something? Just something going through my mind; I might be way off the mark but I’m sure you’ll know.

Tony

[Steve]

Tony

Detective Sergeant Kenneth Oxford later became Chief Constable of Merseyside.

KR
Steve

[P.L.A]

Ken Oxford

In 1966, Superintendent Ken Oxford was in charge of the investigation into the disappearance of the football World Cup that Pickles the dog found.
I can still remember the beaming policeman being interviewed after the dog had found the trophy, and thinking that his promotions had been pretty rapid.

He also arrested Christine Keeler in the Profumo scandal. Strangely, Cliveden, where a lot of the Profumo goings on went on, isn’t far from Marsh Lane.

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w-findaplace/w-cliveden/

Peter