a6 murder

[P.L.A]

Conspiracy?

As Gregsten was cremated, it’s unlikely that he was Catholic.

Any conspirators planning to frame Hanratty would have needed to know for certain in advance where he was going to be at the critical time – and that this wouldn’t provide him with a good alibi.

For all they knew, he was planning to be sitting at home having a cup of tea with his mother whilst the abduction was taking place. If not going to Liverpool to be with his aunt.

Peter

[P.L.A]

The effects of stress and shock

When analysing peoples actions during and just after the crime , we need to consider that the circumstances may have impacted on what they did, and what they thought they did.

We are probably not all the same, or anywhere near it. I can remember many centuries ago, how my handwriting was totally unrecognisable and almost illegible at the start of each exam. By the end of the three hours it was back to normal.

Do people who have been close to being involved in a potentially serious car accident drive away smoothly from the scene?

When asked why she crawled on her hands and knees over the boot of the car immediately after her husband had been shot, Jackie Kennedy said she wasn’t aware that she had done so.

Peter

[Tony]

Hello Peter,

Your post 797.

Good point about how people react after even an accident. I’ve had a couple of bangs in the past and you always think you are going to have another one in the next 100 yards. You never do though. But point taken.
Absolutely no one disputes the car was driven away with a crunching of gears but if it was Hanratty in the car playing the big time controlling criminal he would hardly have wimpishly asked Gregston “What gear are we in? How do you change gear?” He then asked Valerie, after Gregston’s murder, “show me how the gears work” before he shot her. If it was Hanratty he would have known. Doesn’t add up to me.
He would simply have shot her, got in the car and driven away. In those days I recall all cars were very similar and had a four speed stick shift gear lever in an H format. The reverse gear varied on some models and so was sometimes a little tricky but it wouldn’t have posed a problem for Hanratty after a few moments. OK nervous and probably in a state of panic he may have stalled it a couple of times or crunched the gears or even set off in reverse. But he definitely wouldn’t have asked how to drive it especially before shooting Valerie. Would he?
I’m at work now but will have a look at a reply to post 796 this evening if I get a chance.

Tony

[Steve]

Hi Tony

It is usually assumed that because Hanratty was a car thief he was a good driver. There is evidence to suggest otherwise, such as the collision in Ireland, and he didn’t have any driving lessons. The only licence he held was one he gained in Ireland where the rules regarding taking a driving test are very much different to those in the UK.

Crunching gears was a lot more commonplace with cars of that era. Many cars had only three forward gears, usually the first gear didn’t have synchromesh, which meant that it was easy to crunch the gears when setting off, especially if it was the first time you had driven that particular car.

It’s quite possible that Hanratty had never driven a car with the kind of gear box in the Morris Minor. If he had been driving more expensive vehicles, the Jaguar for instance, he could have been used to a column shift.

I don’t think the way the car was driven is any indication of how good a driver the gunman was.

One very important point, though, if the gunman was a non-driver he would not have chosen the middle of nowhere to force the couple to stop the car. He knew he could drive the car away from the lay-by.

Kind regards,
Steve

[Tony]

Hi Steve,

You are, unfortunately, putting doubts in my mind daily. But it’s an excellent debate isn’t it?

I can’t grasp your last paragraph. Help me with it please.

You say:

One very important point, though, if the gunman was a non-driver he would not have chosen the middle of nowhere to force the couple to stop the car. He knew he could drive the car away from the lay-by.

Surely a gunman intent on murder or whatever would have chosen the middle of nowhere. If he was a non driver why would he know he could drive away from the lay-by.

Obviously driving in the early sixties was a lot easier than today. OK the cars had limitations but there wasn’t much traffic and anyone with any nounce could almost teach themselves to drive in a few hours.
I passed my own driving test in 1968 after 10 one hour lessons and no other driving. I took the test in Buxton one Monday morning and remember telling my Dad there was no problems as there was nothing on the road.

Tony

[Steve]

Hi Tony

Sorry, I sent that last post off without checking through and I can see the last bit is not clear. What I meant to say was that if the gunman was a non-driver and intended fleeing the crime scene on foot he wouldn’t have chosen Deadman’s Hill – it’s in the middle of nowhere and a very long walk from there to the nearest town. In fact Deadman’s Hill is almost exactly half way between Luton and Bedford, about 8 miles south of Bedford and about 9 miles north of Luton.

Kind regards,
Steve

[Steve]

I passed my own driving test in 1968 after 10 one hour lessons and no other driving. I took the test in Buxton one Monday morning and remember telling my Dad there was no problems as there was nothing on the road.

Tony

Hi Tony

You had lessons, Hanratty didn't.

And I'll bet you remember driving cars with a three speed box and no synchro on first. I certainly do! Anyone driving in the 1960's will remember having to double-declutch, and crunching gears, especially first gear.

KR
Steve

[Tony]

Hello Steve,

Yes I did have lessons I well remember the instructor chain smoking throughout those lessons. Hope I wasn’t making him nervous and yes I remember the non synchro days and even though I’ve had automatic cars for many years if I hire a manual car in Europe I sometimes double-de clutch when changing down. Old habits die hard.

Going for lunch now.

Tony.

[P.L.A]

The Driver

The gunman doesn’t appear to be a non driver. He had wanted to lock Gregsten in the boot whilst in the corn field, and drive away with Miss Storie in the passenger seat. He only abandoned this plan when Valerie convinced him that a faulty exhaust pipe would cause Mike problems if confined in that part of the vehicle.

Hawser analysed good / bad driving from the perspective of skill / recklessness.

For instance, the incident with the Morris Minor at the junction of Eastern Avenue and Ley Street could have been interpreted as bad driving. Although possibly skilful, it was probably reckless.

It is interesting that Dixie France’s brother in law wouldn’t travel in a car being driven by Hanratty. Don’t know whether it was perceived recklessness, lack of skill or both.

The gunman’s mind probably wasn’t totally focussed on the driving when leaving Deadmans Hill. Slight distraction of realising if he was caught in the car he would be in big trouble – so as to speak.

Peter

[Tony]

Hi Tony

Sorry, I sent that last post off without checking through and I can see the last bit is not clear. What I meant to say was that if the gunman was a non-driver and intended fleeing the crime scene on foot he wouldn’t have chosen Deadman’s Hill – it’s in the middle of nowhere and a very long walk from there to the nearest town. In fact Deadman’s Hill is almost exactly half way between Luton and Bedford, about 8 miles south of Bedford and about 9 miles north of Luton.

Kind regards,
Steve

Hi Steve,

Just a very small point. You say: “If the gunman was a non driver and intended fleeing the crime scene on foot he wouldn’t have chosen Deadman’s Hill”

If I had just committed rape and murder I don’t think I would have been bothered about being caught for driving without a licence. He was in it up to his neck he would have thought: “OK I can’t drive but I’ve nothing to lose now. If I get only a mile further on from here that’s better than nothing. I might end up in a ditch but so what. I might even kill myself but if I get caught walking about round here I will be on my way to the gallows anyway. Right here we go. Now what did she say about these gears?”
There was surely no chance of whoever committed the crime just leaving the car and walking away was there?
I don’t know anymore.

Tony.

[jimarilyn]

I've often wondered whether it was an ironic twist of fate that the murder should occur at Deadman's Hill or if it was deliberately chosen beforehand by the killer.

[Tony]

Good Evening Jimarilyn,

Does anyone know why it was named Deadman’s Hill?

Coincidentally when I go to the watch the match in Sheffield I travel on the A57 and near Ladybower reservoir I pass over Cutthroat Bridge; named because 400 years ago Robert Ridge was found there with his throat cut. A few years ago somebody else was found there. His head had been cut off.
Lovely world we live in isn’t it.
Google Cutthroat Bridge for more info.

Tony

[jimarilyn]

Yorkshire Post 24th August 1961

Evening Tony,

Haven't a clue why it's called Deadman's Hill. I was googling the other day and came across the following piece from the Yorkshire Post website ( complete with a couple or so innaccuracies it would seem). I can't remember hearing that the killer had Leeds in mind as a destination though.

[Steve]

My guess is the Yorkshire Post journalist added the Leeds bit in to provide local interest for his readers!

[Steve]

I've often wondered whether it was an ironic twist of fate that the murder should occur at Deadman's Hill or if it was deliberately chosen beforehand by the killer.

They stopped at least a couple of times before Deadman's Hill in places considered too public. No, Deadman's Hill was not deliberately chosen beforehand by the killer!