a6 murder

[Steve]

Sorry, of course I meant psychic!

[Graham]

Sorry, of course I meant psychic!

You were closer to the truth first time, Steve....

Cheers,

Graham

[Steve]

Hi Graham

That psycho / psychic line came from a client in Isleworth (near Twickenham) - his first language was not English!
He also told me once he was late for work that morning because the traffic was 'chocolate block.'

KR
Steve

[Steve]

Hi Graham

Regarding Isleworth, if Hanratty had not instructed Gregsten to drive the Morris Minor northwards through Greenford they would undoubtedly have driven close to the Twickenham/Isleworth area of London. (Would not want to be going off-topic here ....)

KR
On-topic Steve

[Graham]

Hi Graham

Regarding Isleworth, if Hanratty had not instructed Gregsten to drive the Morris Minor northwards through Greenford they would undoubtedly have driven close to the Twickenham/Isleworth area of London. (Would not want to be going off-topic here ....)

KR
On-topic Steve

Oh yes, the A6 Case...where were we?

My knowledge of northwest London is poor, I had a check a map to see where you mean. Hmmm....if Leonard Miller is to be believed, JH had a pretty good idea of where he wanted to go - northwards towards Bedford. I'm not sure I go along with that thesis 100%, but it certainly seems that JH at some point in the past had relatives in the Bedford area and had visited them.

Cheers,

Graham

[Steve]

Hi Graham

One of the factors that swings it for Hanratty being the A6 gunman is the route the Morris Minor took that night.

I know this part of London very well, going back to the days before GPS, when you had to rely on maps or asking locals for directions, or your own local knowledge of the area.

To get from Slough to the A6 at Deadman’s Hill (or to get to anywhere close to Bedford) and pass Kingsbury, within striking distance of the Hanratty family home, needs a considerable degree of local knowledge. It would have been easy to take a wrong turn and find yourself at the Polish War Memorial, to go through Ruislip or Harrow, to end up on the road to Gerrards Cross, or Tring, or Pinner, or wherever.

The man in the back of the car had to be Hanratty, he knew the area! He was certainly making it up as he went along, but in his mind was the possibility of going home to Kingsbury, and then after that going on to Bedford, an area he also knew well.

Kind regards,
Steve

[Tony]

Afternoon Steve,

If Hanratty was framed for the A6 case as Foot, Woffinden and I suspect almost everyone who contributes to this debate thinks or thought that, then surely the person/people who did frame him would have had an escape route and indeed a route that would point to Hanratty.
The route could have been rehearsed many times before and people would have said it fitted in with Hanratty’s local knowledge, as you are now.
What a coincidence the Morris Minor takes a route that may have pointed to Hanratty. A bit like “Oh, Hanratty told me a good place to hide stuff was underneath the seat on the back of a bus” Good grief here’s the murder weapon under the back seat of a bus! That’s it case solved.
We know Hanratty wasn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer but could anyone be so stupid as to commit murder and leave the murder weapon on public transport? He would have had ample time and opportunity to dump it almost anywhere before he dumped the car.

Tony.

[jimarilyn]

The route could have been rehearsed many times before and people would have said it fitted in with Hanratty’s local knowledge, as you are now.
What a coincidence the Morris Minor takes a route that may have pointed to Hanratty. A bit like “Oh, Hanratty told me a good place to hide stuff was underneath the seat on the back of a bus” Good grief here’s the murder weapon under the back seat of a bus! That’s it case solved.
We know Hanratty wasn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer but could anyone be so stupid as to commit murder and leave the murder weapon on public transport? He would have had ample time and opportunity to dump it almost anywhere before he dumped the car.

Smack on Tony! That ITV programme "You've been framed" springs immediately to mind to describe what happened to the naive and gullible James Hanratty. The police ( two thirds of whom according to one report on the web belong to the secretive and self-protecting Freemasons ) officers involved really had it in for Hanratty. Even Peter Alphon remarked on numerous occasions that the police acted towards him as though they knew he did it but weren't prepared to do anything about it. This is borne out by all the preferential treatment he received at the hands of the courts.

I find it very strange that Valerie Storie's very dubious identification should be accepted and that Mrs Meike Dalal's identification (of Peter Alphon as her attacker) should be dismissed. What on earth was happening around London at this time ??

[simon]

Hi Tony.
There's a flaw in what you say. The killer shot Valerie several times - presumably wanting to kill her. So why should it matter what route he took to Deadman's Hill ? No-one would have been left alive to point the finger at Hanratty.

[Tony]

Hello Simon,

Yes I concede that you are right the gunman intended to dispatch Valerie when he shot her but up until the time he killed Gregston it was a case of hold-up and maybe kidnap. Once he had killed Gregston he had nothing more to lose hence the rape and attempted murder. However up until that point the conversations in the car could be construed to frame Hanratty “Call me Jim” etc. the route could point to Hanratty and remember before Valerie was shot the gunman asked her several times how to change gear. He even asked Gregston about the gears before he shot him. After she was shot she played dead and the gunman kicked her and obviously thought she was dead so why, if it was Hanratty, did he crunch the gears and struggle to drive away. This was supposedly a man who shortly before had stolen a Jag in London and dumped it on Quay Street, Manchester apparently without problems. You couldn’t have found a simpler car to drive than a Morris Minor at that time.
Would Hanratty have thought: “I’m going to kill this woman but even though I’m a car thief I’ll pretend I don’t know where the gears are”

I don’t know but maybe you lot are putting a lot more doubts in my mind.

Tony

[simon]

Hi Tony,
Well, that's a good point about the post-shooting gear crunching ! Plants a seed of doubt (again) in my mind too. The DNA evidence seems to outweigh everything, though ... and I speak as someone who, for decades, went along with the Paul Foot theory - largely because of that ruddy Sidney Tafler reference which, as Steve and Graham have pointed out, was probably a ploy to draw people like me in.

[Tony]

Hello Simon,

Thanks for the quick response. This is very addictive isn’t it?
As I said in my first post I remember the murder I was 10 at the time. I can’t remember the execution. When I read the serialisation of Foot’s book in 1971 I became convinced of Hanratty’s innocence. Woffinden increased my conviction.
For thirty years I bored my mates with the case on our Thursday nights out. I did not believe that the DNA proved anything. I thought it was flawed, contaminated, tampered with whatever. I still struggle with it. Don’t get me wrong I have no time for people like Hanratty but I believed he was innocent and still do, for now.
I came across this forum only about a week ago and have been amazed at people’s passion for and knowledge of the case.
Graham and Steve haven’t yet persuaded me to change my mind but they are sowing a lot of doubts.
I’m sure both of them were as convinced as me until the DNA and I will think about it more carefully from now on.
There are, however, still some questions I need answers to and I will ask Graham and Steve to let me have those answers. I hope I’m not boring any of you with these posts.
Thank you.

Tony.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Tony,
A great post, and it mirrors my attitude precisely, as well as many others that indulge in this more modern mystery.
It is obvious that Valeries rapist? intended to remove the witness to her lovers murder, by repeatingly shooting her, and therefore had no reason to play silly buggers in play-acting out a 'I dont know how to drive this car attitude', by crunching the gears. when the only witnessed had been shot many times, and was persumed dead by the killer.
Hanratty was a capable driver, surely that is acceptable?,
There is definately more to this case then a scenerio which suggests his guilt , simply because of valeries assurance, and dubious D,N,A..
My Head says 'Guilty' , but my heart says 'I dont understand if Hanratty was the killer. 'why would he be so stupid in the vital cover up,, which would be so negative in defensive mode?.
Regards Richard,

[Steve]

Evening All

It’s good that we have new thinking on this subject, and a fresh approach adding to the debate.

It would be fair to say that there are only two known possible candidates for the title of A6 killer: Hanratty and Alphon.

Personally I believe that Hanratty was guilty for a number of reasons, and I believe that Alphon could not have been the murderer also for a number of reasons. Two of these reasons are as follows:

In his confessions Alphon talks of his messianic mission, he talks of giving Gregsten the opportunity to run away. ‘The bloody man kept coming back,’ is what he said. If this is true, what did he plan to do once Gregsten had run away? This has never been convincingly explained.

Which leads on to the second point, Hanratty was known to be heterosexual and to have a ‘normal’ sexual appetite. Alphon on the other hand was not known to have any specific sexual orientation. However, and I hesitate on this subject because I do not wish to offend someone still alive and possibly reading this, what is known is that Alphon has no known history of forming heterosexual relationships. Indeed it seems that for a short period of time he could have had a more than merely platonic relationship with a male friend.

The point I am driving at is that Alphon would not have raped Miss Storie. Hanratty could very possibly have shot Gregsten so that he could ‘have the girl’ as has been suggested, but it is most unlikely that Alphon would have had any such motivation, or that his nature would have driven him to commit rape. It also has to be considered there is even the very real possibility he would have been physically incapable of performing the act of rape on a female.

Kind regards,
Steve

[larue]

Reminds me of 'Raffles The Gentleman Thug' in Viz whose 1903 Stanley Steamer GTE had a Victrola phonograph complete with a massive horn (oooerr...).

hehehe i read viz too... that gag also appeared in a Laurel and Hardy movie several hundred years ago.

very interesting to read the comments of geneticist Dr. John Parrington in post #770 on the subject of DNA. on the one hand we have an 'expert' saying yea, now on t'other an 'expert' saying nay. i don't like quoting poetry [mainly because i can't] but this from Omar Khyam fits the bill...


Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great Argument
About it and about: but evermore
Came out by the same Door as in I went.


btw, does anybody know for sure if gregsten and storie were catholics?