a6 murder

[Victor]

The whole point about Hanratty is that most of "the evidence" if it deserves the name, appears to have been a set of "manufactured and astonishing coincidences" from the moment Janet Gregsten /William Ewer "saw him at the cleaners"

Hi Norma,

You're still being taken to the cleaners by the journalist's sensationalism. There is no evidence that it happened and it has been denied by the alleged participants.

which was only the first of a whole series of "astonishing coincidences" that are supposed to have happened; like Alphon being arrested in his Finsbury Park Hotel after police asked for information on anybody " acting strangely"

He was one of many - why aren't the others repeatedly mentioned too?

and being interrogated for the A6 murder

Why else bother asking for people acting strangely if they aren't going to be asked about it?

[ later confessing to it]

Alphon did confess - but again he wasn't the only one. And of course we all know about John Humble!

to when Valerie Storie "identified" heavily built Michael Clark

Was he heavily built? If he looked like Alphon he wasn't!

Acott then leapfrogging back to the Vienna Hotel to Mr Nudds [alias Uncle Tom Cobley}

Are you suggesting Acott shouldn't investigate his only concrete lead?

so erm -Acott decided it must have been Hanratty then

He was the only white man to have stayed in that room for weeks.

cos Nudds "told them so"

erm - you've just said yourself that Nudds had already been sacked, don't take his word for anything - Hanratty admitted he'd stayed there, in that room, in that bed!

and even was willing to alter his evidence --yet again to help Det. Supt. Acott!

Yeah so just ignore him and let Alphon off the hook!

KR,
Vic.

[Graham]

I spent many a dreary, damp holiday with my parents in the Rhyl/Colwyn Bay/Llandudno area during the 50's and early 60's, latterly at a time of my life when the hormones were beginning to stir....and I can assure you that the amusement arcades and the caffs were full of single young men, not all of whom were locals to judge by their accents. One particularly awful holiday in Colwyn Bay we stayed at a small hotel and a Scots family latched onto us - nice people, but totally unintelligible to us Brummies. It wasn't just Scousers who holidayed in North Wales.

Could be that the young man the Rhyl "witnesses" claim to have seen was in fact a father who'd left his family at the station while he went in search of accommodation - speculative, but no more speculative than other stull I've read about Rhyl.

I still reckon that JH should've stuck to his original Liverpool alibi, and in fact the more I think about it the more surprised I am that Sherrard permitted him to go ahead with the Rhyl ambush-alibi (although there was in reality little Sherrard could do, other than make JH sign a waver that his new alibi was his full responsibility and his alone). JH had past 'history' at Liverpool, could name at least one man who knew him, and as the judge said he didn't have to prove his alibi - it was up to the jury to accept or reject it. They obviously found the Rhyl alibi impossible to accept. (Yes, I know that JH also knew some in Rhyl - Terry Evans - but no surprise that he claimed he couldn't find him).

Graham

[Victor]

"The jury must bear in mind that a good many people who have seen nothing, when they are told something, they see a lot. There is a good deal of that in all this evidence"

Hey Graham,

Now why does that sound familiar...?

Mrs Betty Davies,33 of 19 South Kinmel Street,Rhyl.May 26 1968.
[...]
A uniformed policeman also called and showed me a sketch of a man and asked if I recognised it.I said I didn"t.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

I spent many a dreary, damp holiday with my parents in the Rhyl/Colwyn Bay/Llandudno area during the 50's and early 60's, latterly at a time of my life when the hormones were beginning to stir....and I can assure you that the amusement arcades and the caffs were full of single young men, not all of whom were locals to judge by their accents.

Hi Graham,

For me it was the 70s and into the 80s, but I agree with what you say.

Could be that the young man the Rhyl "witnesses" claim to have seen was in fact a father who'd left his family at the station while he went in search of accommodation - speculative, but no more speculative than other stull I've read about Rhyl.

At the station, or in the car, or on the beach or in a cafe or a multitude of other places - with their luggage. Hanratty never said he left his luggage at Ingledene or anywhere else and continued to search for somewhere to stay, that's Foot speculating.

KR,
Vic.

[Derrick]

...we have Dr Rennie's comment that he looked quite similar to Alphon...

Hi Victor

And as Alphon looks nothing like Hanratty, therefore as I said, Michael Clark bore no resemblance to Hanratty whatsoever

Cheers
Derrick

[Graham]

Let's not conveniently ignore the fact that Charlotte France, when she was watching TV with Dixie and JH, said how much one of the photofits resembled Hanratty, when they were shown. Sometimes this seems to be rather pushed to one side....

And until someone can produce a photo of Michael Clark, I don't see why we continue to be concerned about VS's picking him out on the ID parade. She made a mistake, that's all. An ID parade is merely part of the police's investigative procedure, not the final proof of a person's guilt or innocence.
And VS never stated that Clark was her attacker - she just implied that in her judgment he resembled her attacker, and it was the job of the police to confirm or deny that he could have been involved.

Graham

[Victor]

And as Alphon looks nothing like Hanratty, therefore as I said, Michael Clark bore no resemblance to Hanratty whatsoever

Hi Derrick,

Really? I think they're not that dissimilar.

KR,
Vic

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

What about Alexei Sayle's dad who definitely stayed in the Ingledene becasue he signed the guest book? He was there alone on a Union trip, so presumably with other union people - so there could be lots of single men around Rhyl at that time!


So lots of places were full meaning that potentially lots of people would be wandering around looking for accomodation, and it'd be a long search seeing as so many of them were full.

KR,
Vic.

Mrs Jones explained this perfectly well.As the guest house was full they fitted Hanratty in.He had breakfast in the room at the back where they themselves had breakfast.It had just two tables and from that room there was a view of the back yard which Hanratty described accurately to his barrister.Hanratty also described Ingledene exactly.A house with no front garden----unlike those in Kinmel Street South---which had a green bath in the attic.
When people stay in B&B they are not likely to see anyone else unless they all have breakfast together in the morning.Even then breakfast is usually between 7 and 9 and by the time the first lot of people have had breakfast and gone out, the last lot are only just beginning to wake up!
More ignorance on behalf of the middle class prosecution who didn"t know how the other half lived or what staying in a B&B was like!Swanwick was from an entirely different background to Hanratty---much more prosperous and privileged.

[Natalie Severn]

Let's not conveniently ignore the fact that Charlotte France, when she was watching TV with Dixie and JH, said how much one of the photofits resembled Hanratty, when they were shown. Sometimes this seems to be rather pushed to one side....

And until someone can produce a photo of Michael Clark, I don't see why we continue to be concerned about VS's picking him out on the ID parade. She made a mistake, that's all. An ID parade is merely part of the police's investigative procedure, not the final proof of a person's guilt or innocence.
And VS never stated that Clark was her attacker - she just implied that in her judgment he resembled her attacker, and it was the job of the police to confirm or deny that he could have been involved.

Graham

A mistake that Valerie Storie could so easily have made again--------and this time it would cost Hanratty his life.

You have seen the photofits.Does it require a great deal of spatial intelligence to see that one of them is a dead ringer for Alphon? Everyone else can see its self evident.Yet Valerie Storie composed most of that particular Identikit.The one that did not look like Alphon was composed by Blackhall who said that in fact the man in the Morris Minor who he and Skillett saw at the roundabout looked far more like Alphon >Moreover he stated that the man in the MM "looked nothing like Hanratty"

[Limehouse]

A mistake that Valerie Storie could so easily have made again--------and this time it would cost Hanratty his life.

You have seen the photofits.Does it require a great deal of spatial intelligence to see that one of them is a dead ringer for Alphon? Everyone else can see its self evident.Yet Valerie Storie composed most of that particular Identikit.The one that did not look like Alphon was composed by Blackhall who said that in fact the man in the Morris Minor who he and Skillett saw at the roundabout looked far more like Alphon >Moreover he stated that the man in the MM "looked nothing like Hanratty"

Yes - indeed Norma - it is interesting that one of the indentikits was composed - in conjunction with the police - by Blackhall - not Skillett. The police seemed to be considering Blackhall's description as more reliasble than Skillett.

[Victor]

Yes - indeed Norma - it is interesting that one of the indentikits was composed - in conjunction with the police - by Blackhall - not Skillett. The police seemed to be considering Blackhall's description as more reliasble than Skillett.

Hi Julie,

Wasn't Skillett on holiday and not available to contribute?

KR,
Vic

[Graham]

Norma,

thank you for your views re: Valerie's selection of Michael Clark, etc. Perhaps you would now address Charlotte France's statement, made face-to-face to Hanratty, that one of the Identikits looked like him?

I remind you, that this is Charlotte, the long-suffering wife of Hanratty's friend Dixie, who did his washing and ironing for him, and let him sleep at her flat apparently whenever it suited him. And he was sitting, with her, in front of the TV when the Identikit picture came on the screen. This is not just any woman who might have run up against Hanratty once in a while, but a woman who knew him extremely well. And she said one of the Identikits looked like him. Or do you think that Charlotte had already been nobbled by Acott and was out to pin the A6 on Jim?

Graham

[Graham]

Mrs Jones explained this perfectly well.As the guest house was full they fitted Hanratty in.He had breakfast in the room at the back where they themselves had breakfast.It had just two tables and from that room there was a view of the back yard which Hanratty described accurately to his barrister.Hanratty also described Ingledene exactly.A house with no front garden----unlike those in Kinmel Street South---which had a green bath in the attic.
When people stay in B&B they are not likely to see anyone else unless they all have breakfast together in the morning.Even then breakfast is usually between 7 and 9 and by the time the first lot of people have had breakfast and gone out, the last lot are only just beginning to wake up!
More ignorance on behalf of the middle class prosecution who didn"t know how the other half lived or what staying in a B&B was like!Swanwick was from an entirely different background to Hanratty---much more prosperous and privileged.

Hanratty said that there was a green bath at the top of the house, not specifically in the attic.

I've stayed in more B&B's over the years than I can shake a stick at, and unless a B&B is in a place the size of the House Of Usher, even during a single night's stay you can get a pretty good idea of who your fellow guests are. And no-one - no-one - who was traced and who agreed that they stayed at Ingledene during the week in question said that they could recall anyone matching Hanratty's description.

If Swanwick was upper-crust, then what was Sherrard? Was his old man a dustman?

Almost the whole lie to the Rhyl Alibi can be traced to Joe Gillbanks. Joe was sent by the defence to Rhyl to investigate. He said the first thing he did was to find Terry Evans, and he said he found him easily, presumably because Evans was such a well-known Rhyl character at the time. Now, if Joe could find Evans so easily and quickly, why couldn't Hanratty, who after all had met him before and knew the places he hung out?

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

[/U]

Yes - indeed Norma - it is interesting that one of the indentikits was composed - in conjunction with the police - by Blackhall - not Skillett. The police seemed to be considering Blackhall's description as more reliasble than Skillett.

Hi Julie,
Yes the police did in fact consider Blackhall to be the most reliable of the two for several weeks.It was Blackhall who had gone and reported the incident. But all that was when they had Alphon under arrest and had him in custody and appear to have been convinced he was the gunman. But Blackhall actually had some very interesting things to say about queer goings on regarding the identifications.He was apparently whisked out before he had even got to the end of the line where Alphon was standing! He had only seen four men and for some reason decided to indicate a man who he thought "looked like" Alphon.He says he was a bit overwhelmed and nervous,.Anyway he paused and pointed to this other man and was immediately rushed out.I will find the exact quote over the weekend if you are interested.
After this Alphon was eliminated from their enquiries.

[babybird67]

apart from...

I imagine that a cockney geezer type like Hanratty would have stood out big time in a Welsh town back then

Like, as they say, a sore thumb.

when said cockney geezer type is being confused for a Welsh/Scots person in Mrs Dinwoodie's shop you mean?