a6 murder

[Victor]

Vic- you yourself have argued you believe Hanratty stole the gun for the crime from France's airing cupboard! Is this an example of how you think France protected his family from criminal activity?

Hi Julie,

It quite clearly worked because Charlotte France was unaware that there was a gun in her airing cupboard!

What do you thinkl France's family were doing when he was in prison? Do you think they thought he was enjoying the 'bracing air' in Skegness?

How often was France in prison?
Where did they meet?
When and how?

Compared to Hanratty he was a saint - and as Norma points out a successful father of 3.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Charles Frederick Franz was twenty six when the 2nd World War ended . James Hanratty was a child of exactly two when the second world war started ---France was twenty and had already acquired five criminal convictions-the last for stealing lead from the roof of a block of flats.
During the war ,while Hanratty was still in infants school,France,who groomed Hanratty when he was a teenager, collected six further convictions,two for theft and three for "frequenting a common gaming house".France collected three more post war convictions for gambling offences. Hanratty and he met in 1955 when Hanratty was 17.
"I met him when I was a teenager and didnt know the ropes.He was more experienced and took me under his wing.On another occasion Hanratty said "He [France] "learned me"[taught him] on previous occasions when I was younger"
So here we have it---France,like Fagin,groomed young boys to become professional thieves and bought and sold on for profit the "bits and pieces" they stole.
In other words he was corrupting a vulnerable young person ,the unemployed , James Hanratty.Once Hanratty was caught and imprisoned for stealing a car he began his prison training -as a burglar!
Some friend!

[Victor]

France was twenty and had already acquired five criminal convictions-the last for stealing lead from the roof of a block of flats.[...] France [...] collected six further convictions,two for theft and three for "frequenting a common gaming house".France collected three more post war convictions for gambling offences.

Hi Norma,

So France was predominantly a gambler, not a thief.

Hanratty and he met in 1955 when Hanratty was 17.
"I met him when I was a teenager and didnt know the ropes.He was more experienced and took me under his wing.On another occasion Hanratty said "He [France] "learned me"[taught him] on previous occasions when I was younger"
So here we have it---France,like Fagin,groomed young boys to become professional thieves and bought and sold on for profit the "bits and pieces" they stole.

Er...no... You quote 1 person - the lying, convicted rapist and murderer Hanratty, and from that claim France is "like Fagin". That's definitely not proven.

In other words he was corrupting a vulnerable young person ,the unemployed , James Hanratty.Once Hanratty was caught and imprisoned for stealing a car he began his prison training -as a burglar!
Some friend!

I don't follow your logic here either, it's seems a jump from France the gambler, somehow training the little urchin Hanratty, and plundering all his ill-gotten gains - presumably to fund his gambling - then abandoning him once he got caught by the police and sent to prison, although what and how he could have helped I can't work out. And then once in prison Hanratty progressed from car thief to burglar - and that's France's fault?

And then to cap it all off, when Hanratty is released, he hunts France down to renew the friendship - Can I have some more please sir!

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Charles Dixie France,the Soho ex night club bouncer, was a man who had collected numerous criminal convictions long before James Hanratty was even born.He was not only a convicted thief but had a number of convictions for both theft and gambling both before and after Hanratty was born. Hanratty was an unemployed teenager and therefore in the "at risk" category.He was taught "the ropes" by Charles France who encouraged him to steal and took his stolen bits and pieces to sell on to people who dabbled in antiques such as William Ewer and Louise Anderson.Its perfectly clear that he was a corrupting influence on the young Hanratty who was technically still a child at the age of 17.

Regarding Fagin the analogy was on the basis that both Fagin and France taught unemployed youngsters "the ropes" ---such as" how to pick a pocket or two" or "how to steal lead from the roof of a house" as was the case with one of France"s numerous convictions.They both,.Fagin and France , expected these youngsters ,once they had been "taught the ropes", to go out and steal for them while they pocketed the profits of selling on the stolen goods----in the case of France to dabblers in antiques and the like.

[Natalie Severn]

The misconception of colour in artificial light at night.

Vic,
Have you given some thought to the fact that people are unable to discern the true colour of blue in the headlights of a car at night? It is a scientific fact that nobody can actually see this as a true colour at night in artificial light and that the eyes the colour of hazel-which is a light greenish/ brown and eyes the colour of blue would both appear a bleached greyish colour in the artificial light of a headlight at night ?

[Limehouse]

Charles Dixie France,the Soho ex night club bouncer, was a man who had collected numerous criminal convictions long before James Hanratty was even born.He was not only a convicted thief but had a number of convictions for both theft and gambling both before and after Hanratty was born. Hanratty was an unemployed teenager and therefore in the "at risk" category.He was taught "the ropes" by Charles France who encouraged him to steal and took his stolen bits and pieces to sell on to people who dabbled in antiques such as William Ewer and Louise Anderson.Its perfectly clear that he was a corrupting influence on the young Hanratty who was technically still a child at the age of 17.

Regarding Fagin the analogy was on the basis that both Fagin and France taught unemployed youngsters "the ropes" ---such as" how to pick a pocket or two" or "how to steal lead from the roof of a house" as was the case with one of France"s numerous convictions.They both,.Fagin and France , expected these youngsters ,once they had been "taught the ropes", to go out and steal for them while they pocketed the profits of selling on the stolen goods----in the case of France to dabblers in antiques and the like.

Hi Norma

There is quite a good reference to 'Dixie' in this article - which I think has been posted before.

Although no evidence as such - it shows that Dixie hung around the fringes of the gangster culture of Soho and was known to some of its darkest characters.

http://www.classiccafes.co.uk/confessional_harmony.htm

Re your points about eye colour - we have a forensic science course at the college where I teach and Jonathan - a Cambridge graduate who teaches on the course - confirms that eye colour is very difficult to determine at night even with the aid of street lamps. He is going to test it out for us with one of his evening classes.

[Victor]

Have you given some thought to the fact that people are unable to discern the true colour of blue in the headlights of a car at night? It is a scientific fact that nobody can actually see this as a true colour at night in artificial light and that the eyes the colour of hazel-which is a light greenish/ brown and eyes the colour of blue would both appear a bleached greyish colour in the artificial light of a headlight at night ?

Hi Norma,

Yes, those Rhyl witnesses at twilight would be affected in exactly the same way - much like the Invisible Gorilla -> http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/g...xperiment.html However, Valerie had the opportunity to compare Alphon to her attacker, and believed that Michael Clark was a better match than Alphon.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

Yes, those Rhyl witnesses at twilight would be affected in exactly the same way - much like the Invisible Gorilla -> http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/g...xperiment.html However, Valerie had the opportunity to compare Alphon to her attacker, and believed that Michael Clark was a better match than Alphon.

KR,
Vic.

Well Det. Supt. Acott said that Michael Clark was heavily built and had short dark cropped hair but his aunt who lived on the Welsh borders and was Clark"s closest surviving relative, said he did not have dark hair but light mousey brown hair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Neither the heavy build or mousey hair match Hanratty .
I couldnt see the experiment because of the plug in needed.The only analogy I can see is between the invisible gorilla and Nimmo not seeing the importance of Trevor Dutton"s statements or Christopher Larman"s.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma

There is quite a good reference to 'Dixie' in this article - which I think has been posted before.

Although no evidence as such - it shows that Dixie hung around the fringes of the gangster culture of Soho and was known to some of its darkest characters.

http://www.classiccafes.co.uk/confessional_harmony.htm

Re your points about eye colour - we have a forensic science course at the college where I teach and Jonathan - a Cambridge graduate who teaches on the course - confirms that eye colour is very difficult to determine at night even with the aid of street lamps. He is going to test it out for us with one of his evening classes.

Thanks Julie -the item on Soho is a really instructive piece! So Charles Dixie France was a thought to have been a police informer! And what a dangerous group of men he moved among....
I look forward to hearing about the experiment on eye colour you are going to do with your colleague!
Cheers,
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Of those mentioned among Charles Dixie France"s associates at the Harmony Club he "presided over", the names of Billy Hill and Jack Spot stand out.Billy Hill was the North London gang boss .Information I googled on here says he began as a burglar but progressed to become boss of Britain"s underworld and mentor to the Krays.
It says Charles Dixie France presided over the Harmony club that this lot above frequented after midnight...........they went to a downstairs room ---to gamble.Now a little quiz: who else do we know said lived to gamble---and it was all that really interested him ?

[Natalie Severn]

Maybe I should have asked was what Charles Dixie France and Peter Alphon had in common along with Billy Hill ?
Billy Hill made his fortune out of it eventually - playing the tables in "partnership" with Aspinalle in Belgravia !The boss of Britain"s underworld died peacefully in his bed in the "80"s while poor old France topped himself years before -a few days after the verdict on Hanratty,so maybe he didnt have the strength for the big stage after all!

[Natalie Severn]

Read about the "gamblers" of Belgravia when Billy Hill"s star rose after he had left "Harmony"s and the Harmony club in Soho where Charles France "presided"---- until March 1962.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/book...rmont-con.html

[Victor]

Well Det. Supt. Acott said that Michael Clark was heavily built and had short dark cropped hair but his aunt who lived on the Welsh borders and was Clark"s closest surviving relative, said he did not have dark hair but light mousey brown hair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Neither the heavy build or mousey hair match Hanratty .

Hi Norma,

But if you look at it the other way round - Acott saying dark hair, and Clark's aunt saying blue eyes and medium build - then it's spot on for Hanratty!

I couldnt see the experiment because of the plug in needed.The only analogy I can see is between the invisible gorilla and Nimmo not seeing the importance of Trevor Dutton"s statements or Christopher Larman"s.

The Invisible Gorilla demonstrates the unreliability of eyewitnesses - I got the reference from "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Richard Dawkins, a xmas present and a fantastic read so far. It has no connection to Nimmo whatsoever, but completely undermines Dutton and Larman et al.

KR,
Vic.

[Derrick]

...Clark's aunt saying blue eyes and medium build...

Clarks aunt said that he had mousey brown hair. She mentioned nothing else at all about his appearance.

[Natalie Severn]

Clarks aunt said that he had mousey brown hair. She mentioned nothing else at all about his appearance.

Absolutely!
The only person who mentioned Michael Clark"s build was Det Supt. Acott who said Clark was "heavily built"...........well that was not Hanratty who was very slim.