a6 murder

[Derrick]

May I politely draw everyone's attention to Post No 172 on the Steve Wright thread? No further comment necessary.

Graham

Graham
You are quite right.
Victor's theory that uncle_adolph is my sock puppet must have come as quite a shock to whoever uncle_adolph is.

Regards
Derrick

[Natalie Severn]

Norma
Maybe it was but it isn't even implicit within the body of the text.
It should actually be removed from Wikipaedia as it doesn't pass their standard of being a reputable source.

Derrick

I think thats right.I know it definitely wouldnt be accepted in a reputable book on JtR say,as a reputable source ,without a date,a name or info on the subject that was addressed.

[babybird67]

Jen,
The piece of cloth was kept in conditions that were not at all pristine.It was kept in a brown envelope where the edges had come apart found in a drawer after 31 years that contained other exhibits that had been handled by all and sundry.In the same file was a broken vial,thought to have contained a seminal wash from Hanratty"s trousers.

The hanky was kept in Bedford police station and who knows after 40 odd years where it had been?Who had handled it? Who knows for sure it wasn"t just one of Hanratty"s many white hankies?
The hanky may have simply been a trophy kept back from the trial .

Why don't you ever address the points people make Norma?

My post said contamination was considered as possible. It is not a plausible explanation either for the absence of what would have to be the real rapist's DNA nor for the distribution of Hanratty's semen sample which demonstrated to the experts who do this for a living that sexual intercourse had taken place. Don't just trot out the 'possible contamination' straw argument again.

[Limehouse]

Why don't you ever address the points people make Norma?

My post said contamination was considered as possible. It is not a plausible explanation either for the absence of what would have to be the real rapist's DNA nor for the distribution of Hanratty's semen sample which demonstrated to the experts who do this for a living that sexual intercourse had taken place. Don't just trot out the 'possible contamination' straw argument again.

Could you clarify what you mean by distribution of semen please?

[Natalie Severn]

Why don't you ever address the points people make Norma?

My post said contamination was considered as possible. It is not a plausible explanation either for the absence of what would have to be the real rapist's DNA nor for the distribution of Hanratty's semen sample which demonstrated to the experts who do this for a living that sexual intercourse had taken place. Don't just trot out the 'possible contamination' straw argument again.

I have actually addressed quite a number of points today if you read back.
I haven't addressed all yours on the DNA because we seem to go round and round over this.
What we are expected to accept is that this old ,tiny piece of cloth cut from Valerie"s knickers is reliable as evidence even though we do not know what happened to it after it left the police lab on December 27th 1961 . Yet we are expected to believe that from a mixture of Gregsten"s ,V.S"s and the rapists DNA ,a scientist has been able to identify and distinguish between the sexual intercourse that had taken place prior to the rape between the V.S. and Gregsten and sexual intercourse that had taken place between V.S. and her rapist.Well I don"t buy it especially after reading that the use of LCN DNA has been banned from Appeal Courts in America because of the frequency of errors in analysis : http://www.promega.com/geneticidproc...ts/budowle.pdf
Best,
Norma

[Graham]

Graham
You are quite right.
Victor's theory that uncle_adolph is my sock puppet must have come as quite a shock to whoever uncle_adolph is.

Regards
Derrick

So who IS your sock-puppet?

Graham

[Victor]

So who IS your sock-puppet?

Graham

Hi Graham,

Great question. Although personally I'd ask "Who's got their hand up your ar$ehole"?

KR,
Vic

[babybird67]

Could you clarify what you mean by distribution of semen please?

what the stains on someone's knickers like when vaginal fluid and semen are mixed together after intercourse...i.e., not from being spilled accidentally onto something.

[Limehouse]

what the stains on someone's knickers like when vaginal fluid and semen are mixed together after intercourse...i.e., not from being spilled accidentally onto something.

Thanks. Personally - I am not convinced that the final DNA tests did show that the DNA was mixed together. Certainly the first tests could not have shown this. However - I will read the report again.

[babybird67]

Thanks. Personally - I am not convinced that the final DNA tests did show that the DNA was mixed together. Certainly the first tests could not have shown this. However - I will read the report again.

It's what the experts said. They can distinguish between primary and secondary transfer. This was without a doubt primary. What they found proved conclusively sex had taken place.

[Natalie Severn]

It's what the experts said. They can distinguish between primary and secondary transfer. This was without a doubt primary. What they found proved conclusively sex had taken place.

But this evidence which came through LCN DNA testing would not be allowed to be produced as evidence in the Courts of Appeal in many States in America due to the frequency of error in the conclusion.Such use of LCN DNA tests have been banned in appeal courts in these American States.

[babybird67]

But this evidence which came through LCN DNA testing would not be allowed to be produced as evidence in the Courts of Appeal in many States in America due to the frequency of error in the conclusion.Such use of LCN DNA tests have been banned in appeal courts in these American States.

Norma...one, we aren't in the USA.

Two...forget about the DNA identifying the participants. Forget about that altogether for a moment, ok. It's not that Hanratty's DNA was there. It's that the distribution and pattern reflected a sexual activity. This is used in rape cases all the time, regardless of LCN DNA testing. Scientists look for said distribution so they can determine whether sexual intercourse took place and that distribution was there. They had sex. It was not contamination.

[Victor]

But this evidence which came through LCN DNA testing would not be allowed to be produced as evidence in the Courts of Appeal in many States in America due to the frequency of error in the conclusion.Such use of LCN DNA tests have been banned in appeal courts in these American States.

Hi Norma,

You still haven't given your proof of this contention so please stop repeating it because I believe it to be inaccurate.

KR,
Vic

[Natalie Severn]

Vic,
Have you found the title yet of the article you keep quoting from about Micheal Sherrard that has no name to it and no date on it?

[Natalie Severn]

Jen,

.forget about the DNA identifying the participants. Forget about that altogether for a moment, ok. It's not that Hanratty's DNA was there. It's that the distribution and pattern reflected a sexual activity. This is used in rape cases all the time, regardless of LCN DNA testing. Scientists look for said distribution so they can determine whether sexual intercourse took place and that distribution was there. They had sex. It was not contamination.

Jen,

For the scientist to be saying that vaginal fluid was discovered to be mixed with the rapists semen, surely it follows that oxytocin was released too ie the ingredient present during the release of vaginal fluid in order to reach sexual orgasm,.I have great difficulty accepting this.I mean oxytocin is released in response to "pleasure" ,nurturing etc.What on earth can this have to do with rape for goodness sake.
Norma