a6 murder

[Natalie Severn]

Hi babybird,

It makes no difference. He was seeing several women. Carole was a child and he was an older man in the role of Uncle under her father's roof. He exploited her, whether it was a full blown sexual experience or anything else, in my opinion.

Hanratty was 24 years old ie seven years younger than Prince Charles was when Charles met 17 year old Lady Diana,nine years younger than when Charles married 19 year old Diana.
I have always understood that Diana"s father felt somewhat aggrieved ,at first, given that Charles had other women at the time too.
I think that once a person has reached the age of sixteen,they have reached the age of consent so strictly speaking they are not children.

I do understand your objection and that Hanratty was in a position of trust.But it does happen and has done from the beginning of time.
I notice that nobody is being critical of the distinctly sleazy background France himself was involved in .

[Natalie Severn]

.would you argue for example that Maxine Carr 'betrayed' her lover when she finally came clean about his whereabouts the night those little Soham girls were murdered? You are condemning France for being honest here...yet we all condemned Carr for not being so

That is a good point babybird.But in my opinion the two cases are not the same.The police had up until the last week of September been given to 'wild speculation" about Peter Alphon. However when Valerie failed to identify Alphon they promptly switched this "wild speculation" to Hanratty.It was as simple as that.What followed was a "fit up" in my view,from beginning to end.

[Natalie Severn]

Quite a few of them by James Hanratty - Mary Pryor I think her name was

Are you sure Vic?
He fell for a girl named Mary Meaden--who he didnt have sex with you may be glad to know.She stated he had proposed marriage to her after the first week ,it was after he had taken her to see Harry Seacombe and she actually described his behaviour as always being that of a "perfect gentleman"-and she continued to speak highly of him long after he had been executed.

[babybird67]

hi Norma

Hi babybird,


I think that once a person has reached the age of sixteen,they have reached the age of consent so strictly speaking they are not children.

Are you a parent? I am. My eldest son is 21 this weekend and i still consider him a child. Certainly, a girl aged 16 is still a child in my eyes. Besides it is not the age per se, but the combination of age and the position of trust/family Hanratty had in relation to her that is particularly worrying. Also the fact that he was promiscuous, sleeping with prostitutes etc.

I notice that nobody is being critical of the distinctly sleazy background France himself was involved in .

I am always critical of criminals. I criticise all of them equally. However I do have sympathy for France because there is no evidence linking him to the gun, yet speculation continues to flourish that he was responsible for procuring it...it led him to take his life.

[babybird67]

That is a good point babybird.But in my opinion the two cases are not the same.The police had up until the last week of September been given to 'wild speculation" about Peter Alphon. However when Valerie failed to identify Alphon they promptly switched this "wild speculation" to Hanratty.It was as simple as that.What followed was a "fit up" in my view,from beginning to end.

It was not wild speculation that led them to Hanratty. It was a trail of evidence. HIs own confession that he stayed at the Vienna as well as his signature in the guest book...the cartridges in the room in which he stayed. The gun then found on the bus with his handkerchief etc etc...

A rape victim would never be complicit in convicting the wrong man for her rape. Can you provide me one motive for any of the three main identification witnesses, that is Ms Storie, and the Redbridge witnesses, to have lied about having seen Hanratty at the scene of the crime or in the murder car? If they hadn't really seen him, how likely do you think it was that they could pick him out from a line up?

[Natalie Severn]

Hi babybird

Are you a parent? I am. My eldest son is 21 this weekend and i still consider him a child. Certainly, a girl aged 16 is still a child in my eyes. Besides it is not the age per se, but the combination of age and the position of trust/family Hanratty had in relation to her that is particularly worrying. Also the fact that he was promiscuous, sleeping with prostitutes etc.

Yes, I was not quite 21 when my daughter was born and she is certainly my pride and joy,along with my grandchildren .
I agree Hanratty did betray his friend"s trust with his friend"s sixteen year old daughter.But for a twenty four year old male to be promiscuous,is that so uncommon ? Going with prostitutes? Again, dont have a big problem with that ---as he made friends with those girls who also spoke well of him,one girl in Rhyl actually wrote to the police to help him.He was attracted to the Soho underworld---he seems to have found it stylish like lots of young people-especially males, at the time were impressed by Frank Sinatra and his "Rat Pack"----yet the Mafia were never far from their door.

A rape victim would never be complicit in convicting the wrong man for her rape.

I have never thought Valerie was complicit in any of it.

Can you provide me one motive for any of the three main identification witnesses, that is Ms Storie, and the Redbridge witnesses, to have lied about having seen Hanratty at the scene of the crime or in the murder car

Valerie believed she had identified the gunman. The Redbridge witnesses roundly contradict each other [Skillett and Blackhall---Blackhall [nearest to the MM] is on record as saying the man he saw driving the Moris Minor looked nothing like Hanratty.The driver on the other hand,Skillett did identify Hanratty but the two disagreed.

BB if you hit my name above you can read my profile!

[jimarilyn]

Hello Jimarilyn

Thanks for the kind words. I shall endeavour to put the argument fearlessly. I will let you have my thoughts on various matters appertaining to this case so soon as they occur to me.

Ron

12 months ago today Ronald since that post of mine [#4645] which you quoted. Thank you for your quick reply.

[RonIpstone]

12 months ago today Ronald since that post of mine [#4645] which you quoted. Thank you for your quick reply.

Not at all. My pleasure.

[jimarilyn]

Hi Norma,

Quite a few of them by James Hanratty - Mary Pryor I think her name was.

Your lack of knowledge about A6 related matters surprises me Victor. That's twice very recently you haven't had a clue what you were talking about. I have serious doubts as to whether you really have the Foot and Woffinden books.

PS. I wouldn't advise you to pick the A6 Murder Case as your chosen subject if you ever get to appear on Mastermind.

[babybird67]

Your lack of knowledge about A6 related matters surprises me Victor. That's twice very recently you haven't had a clue what you were talking about. I have serious doubts as to whether you really have the Foot and Woffinden books.

PS. I wouldn't advise you to pick the A6 Murder Case as your chosen subject if you ever get to appear on Mastermind.

Funny, Victor's knowledge about the case as well as his arguments and posts in general have always impressed me.

A bit petty of you to pick on this when you seem happy to leave Norma's continual misnaming of people (e.g Langland) uncommented upon.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi babybird!
I have made mistakes with names throughout my life.I am a bit like Hanratty and have suffered embarrassment over it!


To Vic,
You referred to a Morris Minor being a car that Hanratty might not have known how to drive because it was "beneath "him.But really that is quite impossible as it had the simplest most basic engine and gears on the market.

Regards
Norma

[jason_c]

Hi babybird!
I have made mistakes with names throughout my life.I am a bit like Hanratty and have suffered embarrassment over it!


To Vic,
You referred to a Morris Minor being a car that Hanratty might not have known how to drive because it was "beneath "him.But really that is quite impossible as it had the simplest most basic engine and gears on the market.

Regards
Norma

All of which is irrelevant as he was ID'd as the culprit.

[Victor]

That is a good point babybird.But in my opinion the two cases are not the same.The police had up until the last week of September been given to 'wild speculation" about Peter Alphon. However when Valerie failed to identify Alphon they promptly switched this "wild speculation" to Hanratty.It was as simple as that.What followed was a "fit up" in my view,from beginning to end.

Hi Norma,

I don't consider it "wild speculation" about either suspect - Alphon was reported as one of the men acting strangely in a hotel, which although not particularly important was what caused the police to be aware of him. The cartridge cases in the Vienna provided a second link and made Alphon the lead suspect, but when he was not identified by the victim the police had to move on to the next best suspect - a man known only as Ryan, which of course turned out to be Hanratty. It's straightforward and logical.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Your lack of knowledge about A6 related matters surprises me Victor. That's twice very recently you haven't had a clue what you were talking about. I have serious doubts as to whether you really have the Foot and Woffinden books.

PS. I wouldn't advise you to pick the A6 Murder Case as your chosen subject if you ever get to appear on Mastermind.

Hi James,

What an offensive and unfounded, bitter comment, not too unexpected I suppose when James can't attack my posts for their content, he has to massively exaggerate a clearly mild, unassuming post. And then come out with a clearly ridiculous and demonstrably untrue quote like doubting I have the books - which I have previously posted extracts from.

I can only conclude James is delusional, or possibly showing the first signs of senile dementia.

Well let's see where this wild accusation comes from...

Quite a few of them by James Hanratty - Mary Pryor I think her name was.

Yes quite clearly says "I think her name was" so the pointless vitriol is unfounded. Anyway my comment relates to...

Charles France may not have liked it but France himself worked very closely with gangsters in Soho and was himself a small time crook ,he had also been recently sacked from his job as Soho bouncer at the "Rehearsal Club " where,it needs to be remembered , he must have witnessed many vulnerable young women being exploited by men

So what we are looking for is a woman who had sex with James Hanratty and who frequented the Rehersal Club Soho so France could have 'witness her being exploited' by Hanratty. Does Mary Meaden fit this criteria? Nope, I don't think so.

So is there anyone else who would... I have a thought going round my head about a black stripper or prostitute that used the Rehersal Club and had sex with Hanratty, and I seem to remember her name was Mary Pryor, but I'm not certain about this (hence the "I think her name was")

Now I don't have my books with me here as I am at work, and my books are at home - a fact that I've posted a few times on this thread - so I can't check that detail - can anyone else verify that for me?

KR,
Vic.

ps. Thank you for your nice compliment Jen. I hope your son has a great birthday.

[Victor]

You referred to a Morris Minor being a car that Hanratty might not have known how to drive because it was "beneath "him.But really that is quite impossible as it had the simplest most basic engine and gears on the market.

Hi Norma,

I recall someone posting they had a Moggie many years ago where the gears would best be described as "temperamental", which basic engine and gears are prone to be, whereas Jaguars and the like would be better engineered and finished and would be smoother and easier to operate. I had a Hillman Imp many years ago and the gears on that took a special "knack" to operate smoothly. Didn't Hanratty say something similar in one of his last letters to his brother Michael about the car he left him?

Graham - was it you that had the Moggie?

KR,
Vic.