a6 murder

[RonIpstone]

I am not sure how Dixie's evidence of Hanratty saying that the back seat of the bus was a good place to get rid of unwanted stuff can be said to be 'suspicious' as Hanratty himself admitted saying this to him.

If it is suggested that Dixie planted the shooter to incriminate Jim, then one wonders why he should want to do this, as by all accounts they were on good terms. Also how would Dixie have known that Jim would not be able to establish an alibi?

I think that we can safely say that Jim being of limited imagination believed that if he got rid of his 'piece' under the back seat of a London bus, it would be many years before it was discovered. It must have been a most unpleasant shock for young Hanratty to hear of the discovery of his cache after such a short time.

Jim's crime caused such revulsion that even Dixie felt constrained to grass on him and recount Jim's proud boast as to safe hiding places for unwanted stuff.

[Natalie Severn]

Ron said:[QUOTE]I am not sure how Dixie's evidence of Hanratty saying that the back seat of the bus was a good place to get rid of unwanted stuff can be said to be 'suspicious' as Hanratty himself admitted saying this to him.[QUOTE]

On the other hand you have to admit it is a total betrayal of his "friend" to be standing up in court as a witness for the prosecution in a capital case where his friend faced death by hanging and where his friend vehemently protested his innocence to the last .
His suicide belongs to a long line of those who have betrayed their friends since biblical times ,usually for some ulterior motive.Thatswhat it smacks of to me.

[Natalie Severn]

I think that we can safely say that Jim being of limited imagination believed that if he got rid of his 'piece' under the back seat of a London bus, it would be many years before it was discovered.

Who said he was of limited imagination? He worked out how to fast track his driving licence for his Sunbeam Alpine well enough and how to break into a Jaguar with remarkable alacrity.

Your next point about him allegedly depositing the gun under the back seat of the 36A bus, makes no sense.
a]Why would he return to this bus route that ran alongside the Vienna Hotel -especially if he didnt know its route as claimed by Nudds [ -Nudds "he asked me how he could get to Queensway and I told him to take the 36 bus}.

b] Doesnt Nudds statement above lead directly to the liklihood that it was Alphon who got on that 36A bus and deposited the gun and cartridges?Then went to Victoria Station ?[Interview with Peter Alphon by Det. Supt.Acott 23 September 1961.]
Alphon left the Vienna at noon on the 23rd August,some 8 or 9 hours after the murder.The 36 A bus would have taken him to Victoria Station where he had told Inspector Acott he had left a case on the night of the 22nd August.
Alphon: I left Mother at Streatham * and [I] then went to Victoria[/I] where I left a case in the left luggage office.From there I caught the Circle Line to Baker Street and from there to Maida Vale.

re the back seat of a London bus---every small time crook in London knew about the back seat of a bus being a good place to "get rid of rubbish"!

* later proven to be a lie

[Victor]

Both the finding of the gun along with 60 cartridge cases on the 36 A bus and the finding of two cartridge cases 19 days after the murder,in the Vienns Hotel seem to me like "plants".

Hi Norma,

Why "plants"? To me the gun is getting rid of incriminating evidence, and the 2 cartridge cases were carelessly left.

Alphon booked in at the Vienna Hotel for just one night .Why one night?Why August 22nd ,the night of the murder? Does anyone know why he said he left the Vienna and moved to the Alexandra Ct Hotel?

He originally went to the Broadway House too didn't he? Maybe he wanted somewhere nicer, or more central, or just didn't like the place.

Hanratty ,on the other hand would have been going out of his way to return to the route of the 36A bus. It smacks of him to wanting to implicate himself,especially if he placed his clearly identifiable hanky around it all! It doesnt make any sense.

After the Vienna, Hanratty said he would be going to Liverpool, so surely he'd want to go to Paddington too?

Similarly it makes little sense to have been so careless over the spent cartridge cases left at Room 24 in the Vienna Hotel.Why bother to make sure there were no fingerprints on them yet leave them in the very room you stayed in?

Did he bother to "make sure"? I don't think so because that assumes he deliberately wiped them when the evidence doesn't indicate that at all, and if you remove that half of your question, then it can easily be explained by carelessness or ambivalence.

Its like leaving the gun under the back seat of the bus-- taking great care to remove all your finger prints from the it and the 60 cartridges but wrapping your hanky round it all to make sure people would know it was definitely you who left them .

Again you are assuming the fingerprints were removed, although in this instance the presence of the hanky does suggest that - i.e., a tangible piece of evidence for the assumption. Secondly I though it was a plain handkerchief that Hanratty admitted looked lie it could be one of his - he used a plain handkerchief. It's the DNA that proves it was his.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

To me the most damning piece of circumstantial evidence was the finding of the gun and ammo on the 36A bus.
But because the supplier of the testimony that linked that to Hanratty topped himself in mysterious circumstances, with a suicide letter and papers subject to a 70-odd year rule and being subjected to abuse from a former suspect in the case, it kinda renders it somewhat suspicious evidence.

Hi Derrick,

Hmmm... Let's see, did Alphon abuse France? Bit hard to prove that, so it's not a definite fact.

Secondly, France and Hanratty were friends, both were "shady" characters on the fringes of the law, which links to Norma's post...

On the other hand you have to admit it is a total betrayal of his "friend" to be standing up in court as a witness for the prosecution in a capital case where his friend faced death by hanging and where his friend vehemently protested his innocence to the last .
His suicide belongs to a long line of those who have betrayed their friends since biblical times ,usually for some ulterior motive.Thatswhat it smacks of to me.

If France learns\works out\suspects that Hanratty isn't just a bit of a minor criminal, but is a rapist and a killer - then who's betraying who?

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Vic,

He originally went to the Broadway House too didn't he? Maybe he wanted somewhere nicer, or more central, or just didn't like the place.

I dont think Alphon was too concerned with "niceness" Vic.

After the Vienna, Hanratty said he would be going to Liverpool, so surely he'd want to go to Paddington too?

I agree and he would then have been able to take a bus-[the 27?]direct to Euston.

Then France learns\works out\suspects that Hanratty isn't just a bit dodgy, but is a rapist and a killer

How did he work this out?Where is the evidence?

[Victor]

I dont think Alphon was too concerned with "niceness" Vic.

Hi Norma,

"niceness", comfort, cleanliness, whatever - maybe he just didn't like Nudds? There are many reasons why Alphon would stay in a hotel only one night and move to another hotel - I did on a family holiday as a child.

I agree and he would then have been able to take a bus-[the 27?]direct to Euston.

So he did the 36. OK.

How did he work this out?Where is the evidence?

Who knows? Who cares? You asked for a reason why France would turn on his friend, and we have the suggestion that the gun was France's (airing cupboard, butcher's bag, &tc.) so maybe he discovered it was missing?

We could always turn the tables on this piece of evidence - France turned on his former friend, therefore he must have had strong reasons to do so, therefore this is a strong indication of Hanratty's guilt!

KR,
Vic.

[NickB]

Doesnt Nudds statement above lead directly to the liklihood that it was Alphon who got on that 36A bus and deposited the gun and cartridges?

Again, why couldn't this have been a plant to incriminate Alphon?

Anything that points towards Hanratty is a plant, but anything that points towards Alphon is evidence.

[Natalie Severn]

Again, why couldn't this have been a plant to incriminate Alphon?

Anything that points towards Hanratty is a plant, but anything that points towards Alphon is evidence.

Possibly although from his very first statement Nudds is referring to "Ryan"[Hanratty] rather than "Durrant " [Alphon] as having been in Room 24 and "Ryan" needing to return to his room [we now know this was a perfectly normal request after paying his bill to go and get his case].Next Nudds has Ryan asking the way to Queensway etc.

[Black Rabbit]

RonIpstone
We're still awaiting your response Re: posts #7110 & #7128

An apology would be a good starting point.

[Victor]

Who said he was of limited imagination? He worked out how to fast track his driving licence for his Sunbeam Alpine well enough and how to break into a Jaguar with remarkable alacrity.

Hi Norma,

Did he? Or was he told what to do? I tend to agree he was of limited intelligence and imagination.

Doesnt Nudds statement above lead directly to the liklihood that it was Alphon who got on that 36A bus and deposited the gun and cartridges?Then went to Victoria Station ?[Interview with Peter Alphon by Det. Supt.Acott 23 September 1961.]

I don't understand that at all, the gun was found the day afterwards - ie after Alphon had booked into the Alexandria Court!

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Vic,

Did he? Or was he told what to do? I tend to agree he was of limited intelligence and imagination

Hanratty was actually extremely resourceful and "inventive" when the subject matter was of interest to him ie when he needed or wanted to be.He had been quick to purchase a Irish Driving Licence .
He had seen a Jaguar parked in Central London, near Portland Place and worked out it would be back there later because of it being parked in front of a block of flats with no garage space .He had a very specialised knowledge of cars.In order to steal the Jaguar he had to purchase a Jaguar "Fan 5" key-he had had to know and remember precisely which models of Jaguar that key would fit in order for it to be of any use.The car he said had "a red interior and a floor gear change with overdrive".These are examples of perfectly normal intelligence as was his exchanges with Swanwick when he was being cross questioned .
His expertise with cars ought to illustrate too the very unlikely scenario of him having to ask where the gears were in a morris Minor which had the most basic engine on the roads.

[Natalie Severn]

I don't understand that at all, the gun was found the day afterwards - ie after Alphon had booked into the Alexandria Court!

KR,
Vic.

I know that---but that in no way proves it hadnt been placed under the seat the previous day---we have no proof whatever of that only the word of a cleaner who could hardly admit to not having bothered to look that day and would consequently have been in danger of getting in trouble for not doing their job thoroughly enough.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Vic,

Who knows? Who cares? You asked for a reason why France would turn on his friend, and we have the suggestion that the gun was France's (airing cupboard, butcher's bag, &tc.) so maybe he discovered it was missing?

Well in that case why didnt France say so when he was questioned at the trial?

We could always turn the tables on this piece of evidence - France turned on his former friend, therefore he must have had strong reasons to do so, therefore this is a strong indication of Hanratty's guilt!

Well no,not really Vic.France could have had a million and one reasons for needing to go to the Police to put Hanratty in the frame for this murder couldnt he? We don"t yet know whether France was part of an organised crime.Alphon breathed a huge sigh of relief thats for sure ---[its on tape]....when he learnt France had topped himself.

What, I wonder ,was Alphon doing when he left his case at Victoria"s "Left luggage" on 22nd August? What did he go there for really, because he actually took one case with him when he went to the Vienna Hotel.He certainly didnt want Supt. Acott taking a gander at it because he said so' "Are you hoping to see blood stained clothing in my case?" Quite a different type of response to the one Hanratty gave who actually rang Acott and told him how he could go and get his case from Louise Anderson's.
Alphon I believe, left the Vienna at noon on the 23rd August.Caught the 36A bus at the end of the road to return to Victoria Station where he had left his stuff.And on the way to Victoria Station he deposited the gun and ammunition on said 36A bus,then returned to his locker at Victoria Station to collect bits and pieces to take to the Alexandra Ct Hotel where he was acting suspiciously and wassuspected of being the A6 murderer.

[RonIpstone]

He originally went to the Broadway House too didn't he? Maybe he wanted somewhere nicer, or more central, or just didn't like the place.

Hello Vic,

Could the entry in the register book of the Vienna to the effect that Alphon had paid £1 7s 6d as a 'deposit' be more likely to be a deposit of one night's payment, with Alphon being given the option to extend his stay by making further payments, than the tortured explanation given in Nudds's second statement?

Was it ever established that single occupants of Room 24 would have to pay a double room rate is the management failed to find a room-mate for them? it seems a strange system and one which you would think any single occupant would not accept. It does not seem to have applied to Hanratty who had the room to himself without paying any more than the standard rate for a single room.

Ron