a6 murder

[RonIpstone]

hi Ron

presumably the gun is normally broken to reload it ? if so, any views on why only 2 cartridges were found?
all the best

viv

Hello Viv,

I does seem strange that Hanratty should have taken such care to avoid contaminating the gun and its ammunition with fingerprints yet have been so careless to leave two spent cartridges in the room. Then again it does seem strange that Hanratty should have fired the gun at Valerie Storie so many times and not finish her off, but that undoubtedly did happen.

One possibility is that only two rounds had been fired by Hanratty on his trial run, so when the gun was broken in the Vienna JH was more concerned about recovering the live rounds which would have spilled onto the floor/bed/chair to reload them with two fresh rounds, then he just placed the spent rounds on the chair and forgot about them.

If all six rounds had been fired on the trial run, then it is possible that on breaking the gun all six would have gone every which way, and required some searching for. Jim picks up two and puts them on the chair, and goes in search of the other four and when found he forgets about the first two.

The above might seem unlikely scenarios, but unlikely things can and do happen. I find it much more plausible that in the Viennna Jim broke the gun and was careless in recovering the spent cartridges than in Ingledene Jim not noticing the green bath in his room.

Ron

[Black Rabbit]

Hi BR,

I agree with the first part, but then why couldn't they have fallen out of Hanratty's bag and down the back of the chair when he stayed in the bed next to the chair? They don't necessarily have to be "planted".

KR,
Vic.

What you say could be true. I just offered an alternative possibility, not claiming what actually happened.

[Black Rabbit]

RonIpstone,

could I ask you to respond to my previous post #7110 please?

[Victor]

If the cartridges were linked ballistically to the murder weapon they must have been fired.

Hi Julie,

They were.

Are these shells or cartridges we are talking about?

Neither, they were cartridge cases that would be ejected from the gun when it was broken to re-load.

Now - if the gun was fired to test it - because the user was unsure if it worked or how effective is was - then it is highly unlikely the user would fire it in a hotel room where it might be heard and/or cause damage.

Highly unlikely because there was no damage in the hotel, I prefer your next suggestion...

Much more likely is the scenario whereby the user takes the gun somewhere remote and tests it there. In that scenario the user is unlikely to be returnning to the hotel and therefore cannot -carelessly or otherwise - leave the cartridges in the hotel. in the unlikley event that the used does intend to return to the hotel with the gun - he is hardly going to gather up the cartridges and take them with him.

I agree, but that assumes that Jim got the gun after he arrived at the hotel, but I think it is more likely that he had already got hold of the gun and either he or the supplier had test fired it somewhere remote, as per your suggestion, before he arrived at the Broadway and Vienna hotels and the cartridge cases were either in the gun or with the large collection of bullets.

Now think on - the police had the gun and ammo within almost 48 hours of the crime. So did whoever discarded the gun. It is much more likely that someone else fired that gun to get those shells/cartridges to plant evidence at an appropriate time if needed.

The last sentence does not logically follow from the preceeding two - it's a possibility, but not the most likely one. The following are more likely in my opinion...

One possibility is that only two rounds had been fired by Hanratty on his trial run, so when the gun was broken in the Vienna JH was more concerned about recovering the live rounds which would have spilled onto the floor/bed/chair to reload them with two fresh rounds, then he just placed the spent rounds on the chair and forgot about them.

If all six rounds had been fired on the trial run, then it is possible that on breaking the gun all six would have gone every which way, and required some searching for. Jim picks up two and puts them on the chair, and goes in search of the other four and when found he forgets about the first two.

And the other associated possibilities, such as - he only found 4 of the six, &tc.

Hanratty had a suitcase or attachee case - not a bag. It is very difficult for things to roll out of such a case. Additionally - if they rolled down the back of the chair and lodged there - they would not have so easily rolled off the chair when Crocker tipped it forward during his inspection. Also - Juliana Galves stated that she found the scond cartridge by "running her hand over the chair and the cartridge was on top of the chair towards the back so they were not lodged down the back of the chair.

OK, case, so maybe they came out when he pulled his clothes out of the case and he didn't notice them - there are many possibilities. I also interpret Galves statement differently to you, I think they were lodged between the seat and back, which could be described exactly as you quote above.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

I does seem strange that Hanratty should have taken such care to avoid contaminating the gun and its ammunition with fingerprints yet have been so careless to leave two spent cartridges in the room. Then again it does seem strange that Hanratty should have fired the gun at Valerie Storie so many times and not finish her off, but that undoubtedly did happen.

Hi Ron,

The gun was found wrapped in a hanky - Hanratty boasted about not wearing gloves for his robberies and wiping down with a hanky, although evidently not very well because he left fingerprints in the houses he robbed which is why he was caught so often. Sound familiar?

The other possibilites include Crocker and\or Galves and\or Police Officers fingerprints obliterating Hanratty's - it's the same old mantra yet again, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - the lack of fingerprint evidence is not evidence that the cartridge cases were never touched.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Both the priests who saw him in the condemned cell are said by Hanratty's father to have told him that they were convinced that his son had not committed the murder. I would not be so impressed by this if Hanratty were not a Catholic. A Catholic believes that he will suffer eternal damnation if he dies without confessing sins which he has not confessed at previous confessions. I find it difficult to believe that Hanratty would have gone to the gallows declaring himself innocent if he were in fact guilty, when there is evidence that he sincerely accepted in his last hours the ministration of Catholic priests to whom he could have confessed in the presence of God.

Hi Viv,

If the pope when he was a cardinal can cover up priests raping choir boys, then I have no problem with any of these possibilities:-

1. Hanratty died without confessing his sins.
2. The priests lied to James Sr when they told him his son had not confessed.
3. James Sr misinterpretted what he was told "No comment" became "No confession"
or your suggestion...

it could mean, as was posted before, that Hanratty deluded himself into believing he hadn't done it

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Viv,

If the pope when he was a cardinal can cover up priests raping choir boys, then I have no problem with any of these possibilities:-

1. Hanratty died without confessing his sins.
2. The priests lied to James Sr when they told him his son had not confessed.
3. James Sr misinterpretted what he was told "No comment" became "No confession"
or your suggestion...

KR,
Vic.

The aged priest could also have been suffering from vascular dementia,caused by mini strokes,frequently not even not known about either by the sufferer or their family or friends until the mini strokes suddenly seem to accumulate and cause a sudden sharp deterioration.But earlier on,certain events may be blanked out completely and not others so the person remembers some things accurately but not others or simply remembers things quite wrongly.Something is clearly wrong for a priest to talk about something like that to a stranger.

[Derrick]

What concerns me most about the Cassandra article is that it was written a week after the judgement in the appeal of 2002.

The tale of Father Hulme regaling Mr Leggat of Hanratty's confession is nothing more than hearsay and has to be viewed totally in that light.

I would go further and say that it is complete nonsense, just as others would consider the Sketch article regarding the cleaners. Who is this Leggat man anyway? Has anybody heard of him telling this tale prior to this article?

Yet even if it were true then Hulme has given completely contradictory statements to two people, which not only goes against the confidentiality associated with confession but he may have also lied to the father of an executed man. Not a very savoury situation for a Catholic priest with his SatNav programmed for heaven. [keep going straight ahead after 80 years into Hades. You have arrived at your destination.]

Derrick

[Limehouse]

Hello Norma or Natalie,

Thank you, that's (or that"s as you would have it) very gracious.

Although it does not seem to have sunk in with some contributors on the forum that the spent cartridge cases are ejected when the gun is broken not when it is fired.

Ron

If by 'some contributors' you mean me - why not say so? I am obviously as 'dim as the Bedford jury' in your eyes.

The judge himself stated that it does not follow that Hanratty left those cartridges in the hotel room just because he stayed in the room the night before the murder.

Yes - it is possible he was carelss enough to let them fall out of his pocket or his bag or whatever and yes - it is poossible that they sat in that hotel room undiscovered for three weeks but in my view this is unlikely and since no one can PROVE how the cartridge cases got there my opinion is a valid as yours.

[Natalie Severn]

Both the finding of the gun along with 60 cartridge cases on the 36 A bus and the finding of two cartridge cases 19 days after the murder,in the Vienns Hotel seem to me like "plants".
Alphon booked in at the Vienna Hotel for just one night .Why one night?Why August 22nd ,the night of the murder? Does anyone know why he said he left the Vienna and moved to the Alexandra Ct Hotel?
Anyway, Alphon ,when he left the hotel at noon on 23rd August would most likely have got on the local 36A bus,which is the nearest bus to take on leaving the hotel to go towards Central London.From Paddington you can catch buses that go towards Finsbury Park or alternatively to go to Victoria where he kept his case and some literature in a locker there.
Hanratty ,on the other hand would have been going out of his way to return to the route of the 36A bus. It smacks of him to wanting to implicate himself,especially if he placed his clearly identifiable hanky around it all! It doesnt make any sense.


Similarly it makes little sense to have been so careless over the spent cartridge cases left at Room 24 in the Vienna Hotel.Why bother to make sure there were no fingerprints on them yet leave them in the very room you stayed in?Its like leaving the gun under the back seat of the bus-- taking great care to remove all your finger prints from the it and the 60 cartridges but wrapping your hanky round it all to make sure people would know it was definitely you who left them .

[Limehouse]

Both the finding of the gun along with 60 cartridge cases on the 36 A bus and the finding of two cartridge cases 19 days after the murder,in the Vienns Hotel seem to me like "plants".
Alphon booked in at the Vienna Hotel for just one night .Why one night?Why August 22nd ,the night of the murder? Does anyone know why he said he left the Vienna and moved to the Alexandra Ct Hotel?
Anyway, Alphon ,when he left the hotel at noon on 23rd August would most likely have got on the local 36A bus,which is the nearest bus to take on leaving the hotel to go towards Central London.From Paddington you can catch buses that go towards Finsbury Park or alternatively to go to Victoria where he kept his case and some literature in a locker there.
Hanratty ,on the other hand would have been going out of his way to return to the route of the 36A bus. It smacks of him to wanting to implicate himself,especially if he placed his clearly identifiable hanky around it all! It doesnt make any sense.


Similarly it makes little sense to have been so careless over the spent cartridge cases left at Room 24 in the Vienna Hotel.Why bother to make sure there were no fingerprints on them yet leave them in the very room you stayed in?Its like leaving the gun under the back seat of the bus-- taking great care to remove all your finger prints from the it and the 60 cartridges but wrapping your hanky round it all to make sure people would know it was definitely you who left them .

Absolutely right |Norma. Thank you.

Julie

[Derrick]

To me the most damning piece of circumstantial evidence was the finding of the gun and ammo on the 36A bus.
But because the supplier of the testimony that linked that to Hanratty topped himself in mysterious circumstances, with a suicide letter and papers subject to a 70-odd year rule and being subjected to abuse from a former suspect in the case, it kinda renders it somewhat suspicious evidence.

Derrick

[Limehouse]

To me the most damning piece of circumstantial evidence was the finding of the gun and ammo on the 36A bus.
But because the supplier of the testimony that linked that to Hanratty topped himself in mysterious circumstances, with a suicide letter and papers subject to a 70-odd year rule and being subjected to abuse from a former suspect in the case, it kinda renders it somewhat suspicious evidence.

Derrick

I totally agree Derrick.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Derrick,

But because the supplier of the testimony that linked that to Hanratty topped himself in mysterious circumstances, with a suicide letter and papers subject to a 70-odd year rule and being subjected to abuse from a former suspect in the case, it kinda renders it somewhat suspicious evidence.

Yes, Alphon became very aggressive in his telephone calls, and I am sure the ones to France must have been dangerously threatening,as reported He also persecuted the Russells,threatening them until the police had to charge him.There is a record of one of his calls to Justice,when he thought Justice was talking about him to the person referred to as "The Central figure".He refers to 'the others" involved---

[Natalie Severn]

Absolutely right |Norma. Thank you.

Julie

Hi Julie,
It was reading your posts that enabled me to begin to see how full of anomalies both scenarios are ---the finding of the 2 cartridge cases and the finding of the gun.so thanks to you too!
Norma