a6 murder

[Natalie Severn]

Nick, a point of information: voice identification is even more unreliable than visual identification.

Hi All,
I have said before, Valerie acted in good faith, ofcourse she did .She believed Hanratty was her attacker.I fully accept that.But sadly her conviction doesn"t make her right.

If I believed Hanratty actually was Valerie"s attacker and was the man who brought such suffering on her and the Gregsten family, then,although I am personally opposed to the death penalty,it would make me indifferent about what had happened to Hanratty.To be perfectly honest I would think he had fully deserved it.
BUT,as I have argued and given reasons for , I dont believe Hanratty had anything whatsoever to do with it .I believe the case against him was built on errors of judgment, lies and deception.So to me Hanratty has been murdered by the state, for a crime he didnt commit .

[Natalie Severn]

Very interesting and revealing comment by Storie in the last paragraph......

Well I would like to think I understand what Valerie means,James as she remains certain in her own mind that the gunman was Hanratty.
Norma

[NickB]

voice identification is even more unreliable than visual identification.

I would be interested to see any tests showing that you cannot recognise a voice after listening to it for 6 hours.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nick,
Speaking from personal experience,both my mother and myself had difficulty distinguishing between my father"s voice and my ex-husband"s voice when we all lived in the one house years ago. Mum and I would be upstairs seeing to the baby and we would hear them talking about this and that and neither of us knew who it was who was speaking.Now Dad was 25 years older,had a voice I had been familiar with since childhood and my ex-husband and myself had been living in Canada together for over two years and with my parents for the previous 6 months.
Also I have read about voice identification since but as far as a source goes it will have to wait until I have had time to check it out.

[Limehouse]

What does it matter what Hanratty said? He was a liar, a criminal, he was going to hang if he admitted what he had done...do you expect he would have done anything other than lie in those circumstances?

He was a murderer and he was a rapist and justice was done by the courts. It is just those who hero worship criminals that are flying the flag proudly for miscarriages of justice trying to deprive the victims of the justice they have achieved LEGALLY and JUSTLY through the courts systems, including appeals. Yes, it makes me angry. Yes i am glad it makes me angry. If it didnt make me angry i would worry about what sort of person i was.

I respect your view and your right to express it. I believe your views are borne out of genuine belief that justice was done.

Likewise - my beliefs are based on genuine doubts about whether justice was done. If I believe that justice was not done - that belief extends not only to Hanratty and his family but to Mike and Valerie and to their families also.

I do not hero worship criminals. It is unfair of you to say that I do because you do not know me.

Incidently - others have been found guilty via the criminal justice system and they were unjustly found guilty - Stefan Kiszko among them. So - the legal justice system does not always get it right and it is only as good as the evidence placed before the jury.

Yes - Hanrtatty was a liar and a proven liar but those who took the stand for the prosecution were testifying on oath and a man's life depended on them telling the truth.

I aks the question again - what justice was achieved for Valerie and Mike if the lies of prosecution witnesses sent the wrong man to the gallows?

Like you - I am proud of the person I am and proud of the values I have and like you - if I didn't have these values I would worry about the sort of person I am.

[Limehouse]

I would be interested to see any tests showing that you cannot recognise a voice after listening to it for 6 hours.

It would depend on how accostomed you are to listening to that particular dialect. If it was a relatively unfamiliar dialect and your heard it for six hours - and some time later heard a similar voice - you might be convinced it was the same voice.

[NickB]

It is not just a matter of dialect. It is also pitch (the murderer's voice was high), strength (the murderer's was soft) and a multitude of other nuances.

[Natalie Severn]

It is not just a matter of dialect. It is also pitch (the murderer's voice was high), strength (the murderer's was soft) and a multitude of other nuances.

So you are trying to tell us,like they did at the trial, that out of a line up of men ,the five words heard by Valerie Storie ,of "Be quiet I am thinking",
uttered in a Cockney accent from Hanratty, were sufficient to prove he was the gunman?
That , quite frankly is completely absurd,and by the way,I have studied language and linguistics to post degree level .

[RonIpstone]

That , quite frankly is completely absurd,and by the way,I have studied language and linguistics to post degree level .

Hello Norma or Natalie

I have been itching to ask this for some time, but could you tell me why you use quotation markds or inverted commas instead of the more traditional apostrophe? e.g. Doesn"t rather than Doesn't.

The apostrophe is below the @ on your keyboard.

Hope this helps.

Ron

[Victor]

I've always been under the impression that the likes of Terry Evans, Donald Fisher, Charles France, David Emery, Nicolai Blythe, Laurence Lanigan, Gerrard Leonard, Fr. John Hughes, Fr. Anthony Hume and the three prison warders at Bedford [to mention just a dozen] were all males. Unless of course they were all transvestites......

Hi James,

If we discount the "honour amongst thieves" comradeship, Helsinki or Stockholm syndrome, then that leaves you with... maybe a couple of priests whose job it is to forgive everyone including murderers.

What transvestites have to do with it I don't know, wearing a dress doesn't make you a woman as Eddie Izzard has clearly demonstrated over many years.

On the contrary, I would say that Hanratty's natural affability and cheerfulness enabled him to make friends easily. Male and female.

It's strange that this wasn't apparent in his previous incarcerations, and the beatings he received - were they in Brighton and Blackpool?

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

So you are trying to tell us,like they did at the trial, that out of a line up of men ,the five words heard by Valerie Storie ,of "Be quiet I am thinking", uttered in a Cockney accent from Hanratty, were sufficient to prove he was the gunman?
That , quite frankly is completely absurd,and by the way,I have studied language and linguistics to post degree level .

Hi Norma,

When compared to the six hours of conversation, added to the visual identification. Valerie said she used the voice to confirm the visual ID.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Well I would like to think I understand what Valerie means,James as she remains certain in her own mind that the gunman was Hanratty.

Miss Storie, whose identification evidence helped convict Hanratty, told the Independent on Sunday last week that the findings were "of no concern" to her.

Hi Norma,

Valerie is more likely to mean that the matter was settled years ago for her, justice was done and that she's put the past behind her and took no interest in whatever developments occur - she didn't comment for years, so was unlikely to then.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hello Norma or Natalie

I have been itching to ask this for some time, but could you tell me why you use quotation markds or inverted commas instead of the more traditional apostrophe? e.g. Doesn"t rather than Doesn't.

The apostrophe is below the @ on your keyboard.

Hope this helps.

Ron

Oh dear --- Mr Ron, or Mr Ronipstone---touche! Yes,if you are being pedantic fair enough but informal writing /common usage-- not intended as an insult to your fine intelligence or scholarship Sir!.

[Graham]

Hi Vic,

maybe a couple of priests whose job it is to forgive everyone including murderers.

And I have heard that there were rumours that one of these priests broke the rules of the confessional and stated that Hanratty had confessed just prior to his execution.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

When compared to the six hours of conversation, added to the visual identification. Valerie said she used the voice to confirm the visual ID.

KR,
Vic.

It doesn"t matter Vic.Six hours or six years---five words uttered from a man on an identity parade with the same or similar Cockney accent to the gunman is totally insufficient to hear the nuances,the rhythms,the cadences and subtleties of idiomatic speech.