a6 murder

[Victor]

I haven"t read anything by Foot certainly or by Woffinden-so far anyway, to suggest they thought Valerie was anything other than a desperately ill woman-or that suggests a lack of sympathy for her terrible injuries and ordeal.

Hi Norma,

Both authors deal wih the identification by quoting the Doctor who certified her fit to attend the ID parades, and glossing over the "minor" operation a day or two beforehand - which was to have 2 bullets removed from her body!

KR,
Vic.

[Limehouse]

Hi Norma,

Both authors deal wih the identification by quoting the Doctor who certified her fit to attend the ID parades, and glossing over the "minor" operation a day or two beforehand - which was to have 2 bullets removed from her body!

KR,
Vic.

To be fair - the bullets were removed by local anesthetic as they were lying just under the skin. That is why the doctor considered her fit to attend the Id parade.

[jason_c]

Hi Norma,

Both authors deal wih the identification by quoting the Doctor who certified her fit to attend the ID parades, and glossing over the "minor" operation a day or two beforehand - which was to have 2 bullets removed from her body!

KR,
Vic.

I agree, she must have been an emotional wreck at least. Still, any discrepancies in her story the days after the event are jumped upon.

As for eyewitness testimony, i would be more reliant on testimony given at the trial, or given to the police before the trial rather than ones afterwards.

[Natalie Severn]

eyewitness testimony

As for eyewitness testimony, i would be more reliant on testimony given at the trial, or given to the police before the trial rather than ones afterwa

If you are talking about Mr Newell and Mr and Mrs Cobb"s eye witness accounts,they were,all three given to the police on 29th August 1961,following the release of the identikit pictures ie a full five months before the trial.The reason they were not called to the trial orto an ID parade they believe is because their sightings related to 2.30 in the afternoon of 22nd August,which they think the police discounted due to the time of day they saw the man.
But the point is that no sightings of the man were ever produced.
Mary Lanz gave her first account the day after the murder,saying she knew the couple from their frequent visits.She gave her second account just a couple of weeks before they hanged Hanratty,.

[Victor]

To be fair - the bullets were removed by local anesthetic as they were lying just under the skin. That is why the doctor considered her fit to attend the Id parade.

Hi Julie,

It's true they were removed by local anaesthetic, but it's still removal of 2 bullets and at that stage I find it hard to believe that the Police wouldn't have put pressure on for the ID parade to go ahead as she might not have survived.

If you are talking about Mr Newell and Mr and Mrs Cobb"s eye witness accounts,they were,all three given to the police on 29th August 1961,following the release of the identikit pictures ie a full five months before the trial.The reason they were not called to the trial orto an ID parade they believe is because their sightings related to 2.30 in the afternoon of 22nd August,which they think the police discounted due to the time of day they saw the man.
But the point is that no sightings of the man were ever produced.

Hi Norma,

Woffinden lists a bunch of other reports from people at Redbridge Station and the environs many of which must be irrelevent to the case - just as reports of Alphon's suspicious behaviour in the Alexandre was.

Mary Lanz gave her first account the day after the murder,saying she knew the couple from their frequent visits.She gave her second account just a couple of weeks before they hanged Hanratty.

I thought that Mrs Lanz first account was pretty mundane and didn't mention anything relevent - Justice didn't get to know Alphon until the trial 6 months later, so her identification of him couldn't have been until after then.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Vic

Woffinden lists a bunch of other reports from people at Redbridge Station and the environs many of which must be irrelevent to the case - just as reports of Alphon's suspicious behaviour in the Alexandre was.

,

I dont see how you can say they were "irrelevent to the case".
Mr and Mrs Cobbs and Mr Newell their neighbour lived close to the end of the cornfield where the couple had parked later that day.The consequence of the police dismissing all these sightings was that the police managed to amass no information whatever about when or how the man arrived in the area.There has never been any evidence placing any suspect in the vicinity of Dorney Reach on that particular day.
Personally I find the evidence of Michael Fogarty -Waul of huge significance regarding Alphon,as his early sightings of a man who was a dead ringer for Alphon coincide with Mr Newell"s statement that he had seen the same man in the vicinity of Dorney Reach about three weeks before the murder.It is also important because it confirms Alphon"s familiarity with Slough---both meeting Alphon at the Greyhound Stadium he frequented in Slough and giving him a lift and his knowledge of the field system in the area of Marsh Lane that Alphon had gathered as a child when he had been evacuated there.

I thought that Mrs Lanz first account was pretty mundane and didn't mention anything relevent - Justice didn't get to know Alphon until the trial 6 months later, so her identification of him couldn't have been until after then.

No Vic, Justice went out of his way to get to know Alphon early in February 1962 when,after attending court he became puzzled by some of Supt Acott"s testimony and wanted to know more about the first police suspect who had made national headlines ,Peter Alphon. He finally found him at a hotel and met up with him on 15th February 1962, just a few days before the verdict on Hanratty.He brought along his friend Jeremy Fox who was a lawyer and they all had drinks and the "honey trap" was set in motion soon after .Justice"s reason for contacting him was that people who knew a lot more about the case than himself and Fox had told them Alphon was an intriguing character---there were reasons why Supt Scott had suspected him of being the killer.
The night Mrs Lanz "recognised" Alphon from having had drinks at her pub
previously, was on Tuesday March 20th, 15 days before Hanratty was executed.

[jimarilyn]

John Michael Bryan Leslie Kerr.

I've been thinking of the name John Kerr a fair bit over the last few weeks. Several times a week while driving past the world famous Alder Hey Children's Hospital in West Derby I can't help but notice a Chartered Accountant's premises directly opposite. It has a very noticeable large blue sign with the words "John Kerr Chartered Accountants" printed across it in large letters. Unsurprisingly I am reminded of his namesake who came to the aid of a badly injured Valerie Storie on the morning of August 23rd 1961.

Very recently I watched a really good movie on DVD, namely the 1961 production " Pit and the Pendulum" directed by Roger Corman. I hadn't seen this film in ages. It's two main stars are Vincent Price and [lo and behold] another John Kerr (who had starred 3 years earllier in the film version of "South Pacific"). This John Kerr has only made about 9 or 10 feature films (most of his acting work was for done for TV), two of which were released in the year 1961. The interesting thing about "Pit and the Pendulum" is that it's U.S. premiere was in the August of 1961 and the U.K. premiere was on November 24th 1961, which just happend to be Valerie Storie's 23rd birthday. I wonder if Valerie caught the film at the cinema that autumn and if so what she thought of a John Kerr playing the leading role ?

Perhaps it's an opportune time for a John Kerr thread. I feel sure that most people would agree that he features prominently in the A6 Murder Case and that his story is worthy of further examination and discussion. Who was the police officer he handed that original [and missing] census form to, I wonder...............?

[NickB]

John Kerr

This looks like him.

[Natalie Severn]

This looks like him.

Yes,it does,Nick.
I remember reading that John Kerr was annoyed about the way he lost the notes he took of what Valerie had first said to him about the gunman .These notes contained her description of Gregsten"s killer and her first recollections of how it came about and how she had been shot.
Kerr was angry when, after giving his notes to one of the policeman who had requested them,and he later asked if he could have the notes back,he was told he was mistaken and that he had never given any notes to anyone .
Strange thing was he did ,eventually, get some [or most] of his traffic census notes returned to him and but they were no longer in his own handwriting but in a quite different hand.Strange.

[Victor]

Woffinden lists a bunch of other reports from people at Redbridge Station and the environs many of which must be irrelevent to the case - just as reports of Alphon's suspicious behaviour in the Alexandre was.

I dont see how you can say they were "irrelevent to the case".

Hi Norma,

Irrelevent to the case because they were sightings of other people who were not involved. Newell and the Cobbs saw a stranger in the middle of the day and the abduction happened late that night, but there's no evidence that the gunman was in the area (doing what?) for that long period of time.

There has never been any evidence placing any suspect in the vicinity of Dorney Reach on that particular day.

Nor any previous occassion - it's utterly irrelevent unless you have any evidence that the gunman had been there before.

Personally I find the evidence of Michael Fogarty -Waul of huge significance regarding Alphon,

I find it an annoying distraction.

No Vic, Justice went out of his way to get to know Alphon early in February 1962 when,after attending court he became puzzled by some of Supt Acott"s testimony and wanted to know more about the first police suspect who had made national headlines ,Peter Alphon.

That's exactly what I said - Justice got to know Alphon 6 months after the crime, in Feb 62

there were reasons why Supt Scott had suspected him of being the killer.

and reasons why he dismissed him later, although I consider his 11 points to be an incomplete list.

The night Mrs Lanz "recognised" Alphon from having had drinks at her pub previously, was on Tuesday March 20th, 15 days before Hanratty was executed.

That's very late in the day, way after Alphon's picture had been splattered all over the newspapers.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Quote:
Personally I find the evidence of Michael Fogarty -Waul of huge significance regarding Alphon,

Posted by Vic:
I find it an annoying distraction.

That doesn"t surprise me Vic!
However, Mr Newell corroborated Michael Fogarty Waul"s statement about seeing a man answering Alphon"s description in the area several weeks before the murder.

Newell and the Cobbs saw a stranger in the middle of the day and the abduction happened late that night, but there's no evidence that the gunman was in the area (doing what?) for that long period of time.

The gap between the gunman knocking on their window and the Cobbs and Mr Newell seeing the stranger with the rolled over plastic bag was six and a half hours.It seems quite possible he was checking out the lie of the land.[eg which hedge rows could shield him while he waited for them to arrive.

That's exactly what I said - Justice got to know Alphon 6 months after the crime, in Feb 62

Well ok,but what has that got to do with anything? It was two months before Hanratty was executed.Justice was becoming suspicious about the large number of shady witnesses from the criminal community being presented by the prosecution,particularly since Nudds had very obviously changed his statements, from the version he gave when Alphon was in police custody accused of the A6 murder to a different version when Hanratty was the accused.

ote:
The night Mrs Lanz "recognised" Alphon from having had drinks at her pub previously, was on Tuesday March 20th, 15 days before Hanratty was executed.

Vic said:
That's very late in the day, way after Alphon's picture had been splattered all over the newspapers.

Why is it very late in the day? Mrs Lanz spoke to journalists the day after the A6 murder.She said Valerie Storie and Michael Gregsten went to her pub every night except at the weekend. She ,like Mr Newell and Mr Fogarty -Waul confirmed that she had seen the same man [Alphon] in the area before the murder---thats what is significant--not that she may be lying because she may have seen his photo in newspapers.
Norma

[Victor]

However, Mr Newell corroborated Michael Fogarty Waul"s statement about seeing a man answering Alphon"s description in the area several weeks before the murder.

Hi Norma,

More distraction than annoying but the fact so many people keep highlighting it as if it is significant makes it more annoying. And it brings me back to the point that the Police obviously did investigate and receive reports of people around the cornfield, and Redbridge, but none of them contained relevent information.

The gap between the gunman knocking on their window and the Cobbs and Mr Newell seeing the stranger with the rolled over plastic bag was six and a half hours.It seems quite possible he was checking out the lie of the land.[eg which hedge rows could shield him while he waited for them to arrive.

I still think 6.5 hours is ages to be peering round hedgerows in a location which admittedly the couple had used before but was one of a number of alternatives - setting up an abduction there is ridiculous. And the presence of the rolled over plastic bag would seem to rule out Newell's sighting as irrelevent.

Well ok,but what has that got to do with anything? It was two months before Hanratty was executed.

If Lanz recognised Alphon from Justice taking him in the pub, then that's a significant delay and test of her powers of recognition, which casts a shadow on its reliability.

Why is it very late in the day? Mrs Lanz spoke to journalists the day after the A6 murder.She said Valerie Storie and Michael Gregsten went to her pub every night except at the weekend.

Well that's wrong isn't it? Hadn't Gregsten been on a family holiday?

She ,like Mr Newell and Mr Fogarty -Waul confirmed that she had seen the same man [Alphon] in the area before the murder---thats what is significant--not that she may be lying because she may have seen his photo in newspapers.

I wasn't suggesting she was lying, but now you mention it she could have been seeking publicity for the pub. I was suggesting that Alphon's image had been in the papers and the repeated exposure had jogged her memory to a mistaken conclusion.

Obviously this case has a large element of identification evidence and all the criticisms that you and others have made concerning Valerie's ID and that of Skillett and Trower apply to a much larger extent on the evidence of Lanz, Larman, et al, who were remembering back 6 months rather than a few days or weeks.

I also find arguments about the resemblence between the photofit and suspects utterly futile when the people who drew up the photofits had the opportunity to compare them first hand.

KR,
Vic

[Limehouse]

Vic

The point that Norma has very patienly tried to make is that there are witnesses who saw a man resembling Alphon - the first and strongest suspect as far as the police were concerned - in the vacinity of the cornfield on the day of the attack and at times previous to this.

By contrast - there are no witnesses on record as having seen a man resembling Hanratty near the cornfield on that day. Only Valerie's testimony places Hanratty in the car - but her first description did not fit Hanratty and her identification of the wrong man at the first line-up shows that she did not have clear idea about what her attacker looked like. This is evident by the fact that Alphon - who did not have blue eyes but who did fit the first description issued - was placed on an identity parade.

[Derrick]

...And it brings me back to the point that the Police obviously did investigate and receive reports of people around the cornfield, and Redbridge, but none of them contained relevent information.
...

Hi Victor
How long after the murder did the police investigate the area around Dorney?

Not within the first 48-72 hours that is for sure.

If you do not see the significance of that then you should rethink your approach to the case.

Clue: The surviving victim did not disclose the actual spot where the hijack took place until several days later.

How much evidence could have been gleaned if Dorney had been searched almost immediately?

Derrick

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Vic,

I still think 6.5 hours is ages to be peering round hedgerows in a location which admittedly the couple had used before but was one of a number of alternatives - setting up an abduction there is ridiculous. And the presence of the rolled over plastic bag would seem to rule out Newell's sighting as irrelevent.

I dont see it like that at all.As I have said previously I believe the gunman may have been hired by someone from Gregsten"s family to scare off Valerie.If this was so then several locations the couple used would have been checked over in previous weeks by the gunman.The couple met almost every weekday after work,so the gunman may even have lain in wait several times in the previous weeks.AsI have said before, the hiring of the man was to take the couple on a car ride that scared them......but didnt result in physical violence or rape.But the plan went wrong.

Vic, what makes you say the man carrying the plastic bag with the top rolled over has to be ruled out?