a6 murder

[Victor]

Absolutely right Norma - a very great contrast bewtween attitudes. And if Hanratty HAD told Anderson he stole a gun from the Frances' home - how was she so shocked when the police told her what their enquiries concerning Hanratty were about? Moreover - why did she carry on her friendship with him - knowing he was the sort of man who would steal a gun and perhaps use it in an armed robbery?

Hi Julie and Norma,

Hanratty didn't tell Anderson he had stolen a gun, he told her he had found one in the butcher's bag, in the France's airing cupboard. Which completely invalidates all your concerns, LA had no reason to break the friendship because she didn't know that Jim had actually stolen the gun, nor that he intended to use it.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hanratty didn't tell Anderson he had stolen a gun, he told her he had found one in the butcher's bag, in the France's airing cupboard. Which completely invalidates all your concerns, LA had no reason to break the friendship because she didn't know that Jim had actually stolen the gun, nor that he intended to use it.

Well Vic, LA inferred to Mrs France when they were both in that car on the way to the trial and while pretending she didnt know the woman sitting next to her was Dixie France"s wife , that Hanratty had kept a gun in the airing cupboard of Dixie"s house-----Mrs France said she had been devastated to hear such a thing and it had set her up to go to pieces in the witness box a little later on.

Even DS Acott seems to have thought there was something decidedly stinky about Louise Anderson ,Vic, lets be frank:
Mrs Anderson is a neurotic woman ,and unreliable as regards dates.There is little doubt that although she has not been convicted she has been a receiver of stolen property................From the lists of property taken from her flat ,they include no less than fifty items of jewellery,furs and other valuable property [from the report of Det. Supt.Acott 10 November 1961 page 80.]
Also after stating she had been astonished when she learnt the nature of their inquiries....[LA ,Oct 10 to Daily Telegraph]
---so contrast this with the story she sold to the "News of the Screws" four years after Hanratty had been executed:..."He was guilty....a day or so after the murder, he told me he had killed a man."
This was quite a new "flash of memory" LA had had ,[she had had quite a number during the course of the trial iteself] but this one had apparently come on like a flash of lightning just as she was selling her story to the News of the World ----[four years after Hanratty had been hanged].

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie and Norma,

Hanratty didn't tell Anderson he had stolen a gun, he told her he had found one in the butcher's bag, in the France's airing cupboard. Which completely invalidates all your concerns, LA had no reason to break the friendship because she didn't know that Jim had actually stolen the gun, nor that he intended to use it.

KR,
Vic.

Sorry Vic - but just a few posts back you wrote:

Originally Posted by Victor
Hi Norma,

Yes I happen to believe that the gun was France's and Hanratty stole it from the airing cupboard in the butcher's bag as he was putting his bedsheets away on the Monday morning. The evidence comes from the Louise Anderson\Charlotte France encounter in the car where Mrs France was amazed that Anderson knew the name of her butcher.

Vic.

Now - if you believe Hanratty stole the gun based on the conversation between Mrs France and Mrs Anderson - it implies that Mrs Anderson was trying to make that impression and that - if true - she should not have been all that surprised when the police told her the nature of their enquiries.

I believe that the journey throwing these two women together - and the concocted story about the gun - were a ploy to undermine the relationship between the Hanarrty's and the Frances because the police knew that Mrs France at least - would have doubted that Hanratty was capable of such a crime.

On your last point - what kind of person would not be concerned if a friend admitted to have recently obtained a handgun?

[Victor]

Now - if you believe Hanratty stole the gun based on the conversation between Mrs France and Mrs Anderson - it implies that Mrs Anderson was trying to make that impression and that - if true - she should not have been all that surprised when the police told her the nature of their enquiries.

Hi Julie,

I believe that Hanratty found the gun in the France airing cupboard some time previously, and told Anderson that he had done so. I further believe that on the Monday when he was staying there, he stole the gun.

It doesn't necessarily imply that Anderson was trying to make that impression because she could have given more evidence against Hanratty at an earlier date, but didn't, so was protecting him to some extent, and only gave the police evidence against him when forced to do so.

I believe that the journey throwing these two women together - and the concocted story about the gun - were a ploy to undermine the relationship between the Hanarrty's and the Frances because the police knew that Mrs France at least - would have doubted that Hanratty was capable of such a crime.

That's an interesting theory, but doesn't explain how Anderson knew which butcher Mrs France used, other than the bag the gun was concealed in.

On your last point - what kind of person would not be concerned if a friend admitted to have recently obtained a handgun?

Again, I don't think Hanratty told Anderson that he actually had taken the gun, just told her of it's presence in the airing cupboard.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Well Vic, LA inferred to Mrs France when they were both in that car on the way to the trial and while pretending she didnt know the woman sitting next to her was Dixie France"s wife , that Hanratty had kept a gun in the airing cupboard of Dixie"s house-----Mrs France said she had been devastated to hear such a thing and it had set her up to go to pieces in the witness box a little later on.

Hi Norma,

LA inferred nothing of the sort, she said that Hanratty had told her that there was a gun in the airing cupboard. Secondly, why would she need to pretend she didn't know someone she had never met before? Thirdly, Mrs France was justifyably shocked to hear that the person that she had put up, fed and done laundry for was actually capable of rape and murder - I think anyone would be, but that doesn't mean that LA was lying or conspiring to frame Hanratty because that presupposes that Hanratty was innocent.

Even DS Acott seems to have thought there was something decidedly stinky about Louise Anderson ,Vic, lets be frank:
Mrs Anderson is a neurotic woman ,and unreliable as regards dates. There is little doubt that although she has not been convicted she has been a receiver of stolen property................From the lists of property taken from her flat ,they include no less than fifty items of jewellery,furs and other valuable property [from the report of Det. Supt.Acott 10 November 1961 page 80.]

I note that Acott specifically says "unreliable as regards dates" rather than generally unreliable.

The other quotes you referred to are newspaper reports, which frankly are as useful as a chocolate fireguard. David Beckham is currently sueing the hooker who claims she had sex with him - just shows how accurate newspaper reports are...

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Vic,

LA inferred nothing of the sort, she said that Hanratty had told her that there was a gun in the airing cupboard. Secondly, why would she need to pretend she didn't know someone she had never met before? Thirdly, Mrs France was justifyably shocked to hear that the person that she had put up, fed and done laundry for was actually capable of rape and murder - I think anyone would be, but that doesn't mean that LA was lying or conspiring to frame Hanratty because that presupposes that Hanratty was innocent.

Her statements about Hanratty changed a great deal Vic,as you must be aware.Whereas she had been initially pleasant and helpful towards Hanratty and his family she suddenly became very hostile towards him .
This woman ,Louise Anderson,not only went out for drives in Hanratty"s new car, the sunbeam, after the murder of 22/23 August,but she introduced a young woman to Hanratty,Mary Meaden,who she thought would make him a good girl friend- sometime in early September again after the murder .Mary said "He was only my second boyfriend and he seemed so gentle ".Moreover Hanratty always wore his Hepworth suit , the one he was wearing the day of the murder, for their dates---and dates he had with Gladys Deacon in September too.If LA knew he kept a gun in the France"s Airing cupboard in pink blankets etc -as she told Mrs France that day on the way to the trial,what on earth was she doing introducing an innocent young woman to this man?

[Natalie Severn]

I note that Acott specifically says "unreliable as regards dates" rather than generally unreliable.

Well Vic, since Louise Anderson was one of his prosecution witnesses he would hardly say that everything she said was "unreliable" would he?

The other quotes you referred to are newspaper reports, which frankly are as useful as a chocolate fireguard.

I accept that the News of the World might have been unreliable,although they clearly lined Mrs Anderson"s palm with silver to get that story, but "The Daily Telegraph"? Its likely that story was pretty accurate .

Norma

[Victor]

Well Vic, since Louise Anderson was one of his prosecution witnesses he would hardly say that everything she said was "unreliable" would he?

Hi Norma,

That's a double-edged sword, he said and you quoted him saying that LA was specifically "unreliable as regards dates", and you are asking us to believe that he really meant she was generally unreliable but wouldn't say that because she was a major prosecution witness and he would undermine the case. Please explain how he could specifically mean that she was, like a lot of people, able to recall details of incidents that had occurred but couldn't precisely pinpoint the exact day they had occurred?

For one week last month I was seconded to the London office instead of Brighton, but I couldn't tell you the exact dates that occurred without reference to my expense claims or other records.

I accept that the News of the World might have been unreliable,although they clearly lined Mrs Anderson"s palm with silver to get that story, but "The Daily Telegraph"? Its likely that story was pretty accurate.

Two qualifiers in one sentence of 7 words to indicate that the story could be wrong.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Her statements about Hanratty changed a great deal Vic,as you must be aware.Whereas she had been initially pleasant and helpful towards Hanratty and his family she suddenly became very hostile towards him .

Hi Norma,

I accept that totally, which obviously leads to the conclusion that at some point between the murder and the trial, she came to the opinion that Hanratty was guilty, and started putting some of the snippets of information she had together, which the DNA evidence reveals she made 2+2=4

This woman ,Louise Anderson,not only went out for drives in Hanratty"s new car, the sunbeam, after the murder of 22/23 August, but she introduced a young woman to Hanratty,Mary Meaden,who she thought would make him a good girl friend- sometime in early September again after the murder. Mary said "He was only my second boyfriend and he seemed so gentle". Moreover Hanratty always wore his Hepworth suit , the one he was wearing the day of the murder, for their dates---and dates he had with Gladys Deacon in September too.

All that tells me is that LA was a loyal and trusting friend until mid-September and would support the things Mary said at that point, but later revelations or epiphanies would change that opinion.

If LA knew he kept a gun in the France"s Airing cupboard in pink blankets etc -as she told Mrs France that day on the way to the trial,what on earth was she doing introducing an innocent young woman to this man?

Again, why are you assuming "he [Hanratty] kept a gun"? All the information we have tells us is that there was a gun in the airing cupboard, not who it belongs to, nor how and when that information was relayed to LA.

For example, "You'll never guess what I found when clearing away my bedclothes at the France house! I found a gun and some bullets in a butcher's bag hidden at the back of the airing cupboard. I bet Charlotte wouldn't be happy if she knew that was in the house"

And of course, LA was a loyal friend until she worked out Hanratty was guilty of rape and murder. She rightly felt betrayed by someone she'd trusted and allowed to sleep in her flat.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Vic,
[QUOTE]That's a double-edged sword, he said and you quoted him saying that LA was specifically "unreliable as regards dates", and you are asking us to believe that he really meant she was generally unreliable but wouldn't say that because she was a major prosecution witness and he would undermine the case. Please explain how he could specifically mean that she was, like a lot of people, able to recall details of incidents that had occurred but couldn't precisely pinpoint the exact day they had occurred?[QUOTE]

My point was a general one about the evidence and reliability of Louise Anderson.I had also pointed out the inconsistency in her behaviour generally towards Hanratty,viz setting up the young ,inexperienced Mary Meaden that she employed as an assistant in her Soho shop,to be Hanratty"s "girlfriend" ,only a week or two after the A6 murder while claiming to Mrs France on their way to the trial that she had known all along he had kept the gun in blankets in the France"s airing cupboard.
Moreover she told Michael Sherrard at the trial that she had been forced give Hanratty money ...because I was frightened of the man.

Supt Acott ,in his statement I posted,appears well aware she was a "receiver of stolen goods"--- so yet another shady prosecution witness not exactly bursting with integrity and honesty!

Two qualifiers in one sentence of 7 words to indicate that the story could be wrong.

.
Yes, certainly any news story can be inaccurate but The Daily Telegraph has a reputation for being fairly reliable -more so than say The News of the World.
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Hi again Vic,

Quote:

Vic:
Again, why are you assuming "he [Hanratty] kept a gun"? All the information we have tells us is that there was a gun in the airing cupboard, not who it belongs to, nor how and when that information was relayed to LA.

That isn"t so Vic.If you read Charlotte France"s statement to the police of 12 January 1962, you will see that she says that Louise Anderson referred to ignorance on the France"s part about the matter of the gun, on the way to the trial where they were both about to give evidence for the prosecution, about the France"s] :
"Those poor people,they didnt know he [Hanratty] had the gun, but I did"....He used to keep the gun wrapped in blankets in a screwed up carrier bag which had the name Tomkins or Timkins on it."

So we are to understand from Mrs France"s account of the conversation to the police

a]that Louise Anderson didnt know it was Mrs France sitting next to her when she was saying this.

b]that Mrs France never knew a gun was kept by Hanratty in her airing cupboard

c]That Louise Anderson had been told this from Hanratty himself,which would scare most people on hearing about such devious behaviour with "the gun" from someone they were sharing their roof with and receiving stolen goods from,still less encouraging an innocent young woman to become his girl friend.


Norma

[Victor]

My point was a general one about the evidence and reliability of Louise Anderson.I had also pointed out the inconsistency in her behaviour generally towards Hanratty,viz setting up the young ,inexperienced Mary Meaden that she employed as an assistant in her Soho shop,to be Hanratty"s "girlfriend",only a week or two after the A6 murder while claiming to Mrs France on their way to the trial that she had known all along he had kept the gun in blankets in the France"s airing cupboard.

Hi Norma,

Yes, she set Hanratty up with Mary in September, and on the way to the trial 5 months later, her opinion of him had changed.

Moreover she told Michael Sherrard at the trial that she had been forced give Hanratty money ...because I was frightened of the man.

That doesn't surprise me at all, a housebreaker threatening his fence for more money.

Supt Acott ,in his statement I posted,appears well aware she was a "receiver of stolen goods"--- so yet another shady prosecution witness not exactly bursting with integrity and honesty!

True, fences are committing crimes, but it's the only crime she committed, and she was never prosecuted for it - it's certainly not in the same league as rape and murder.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

If you read Charlotte France"s statement to the police of 12 January 1962, you will see that she says that Louise Anderson referred to ignorance on the France"s part about the matter of the gun, on the way to the trial where they were both about to give evidence for the prosecution, about the France"s] :
"Those poor people,they didnt know he [Hanratty] had the gun, but I did"....He used to keep the gun wrapped in blankets in a screwed up carrier bag which had the name Tomkins or Timkins on it."

Hi Norma,

Is this statement online anywhere?

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

Is this statement online anywhere?

KR,
Vic.

Hi Vic,


I dont know ---but its on pages 146 and 147 of Woffinden with a source added re the police statement.Must dash---will reply to other post later but I suppose it depends on why you think she changed her mind over those five months---it seemed to coincide with her police statements as the press carried stories of her contacting Hanratty"s parents to reassure them and stuff about her fondness of him---which adds up as to why she went for rides in his new car,introduced him to Mary and spoke well of him to reporters during the early part of October!
Norma

[jimornot?]

Hi Vic,


I dont know ---but its on pages 146 and 147 of Woffinden with a source added re the police statement.Must dash---will reply to other post later but I suppose it depends on why you think she changed her mind over those five months---it seemed to coincide with her police statements as the press carried stories of her contacting Hanratty"s parents to reassure them and stuff about her fondness of him---which adds up as to why she went for rides in his new car,introduced him to Mary and spoke well of him to reporters during the early part of October!
Norma

Hi Norma

that is the pertinent point - what happened to change her mind?

She can introduce a girl to hanratty despoitre knowing he had access to a gun; he had apparently told her (based on what you have written) he'd kliled someone and he had threatened her in the past.

Not even sure why we are even looking at her evidence and even less why she is being defended. perhaps Hanratty was guilty - I think now he was - but for sure LA is not a credible witness if only because of glaring inconsistencies you have pointed out - leaving aside the fact she had everything to gain from helping the police. Hardly a loyal friend Vic(!)

all the best

Viv