a6 murder

[Victor]

It is remarkable that 2 of the Rhyl witnesses met a man with exactly the right hair colour and condition that Hanratty would have had at the time of the A6 murder a few hours before the hold up at Dorney Reach. Yet Valerie, Trower and Skillet gave hair colour and condition that does not square with Hanratty's.

His hair was dyed black some 3 weeks before the murder by Carole France. On the weekend following the murder, Carole suggested that his hair be redyed because his natural ginger was obviously growing back.

From this then the man in Rhyl at the time was Hanratty and the killer/Redbridge driver had blue or brown eyes and brown hair based on Valeries evidence and the identikit pictures.

The killers hair was certainly not "very dark and streaky looking", based on the evidence we have.

Hi Derrick,

A couple of points, how does "tacky" or "streaky" equate to "exactly the right hair colour and condition that Hanratty would have had at the time of the A6 murder"? And as Ron pointed out, why did only 2 of the 11 or so witnesses notice that?

Your assumption that Carole France redyed the hair because it was looking streaky is one possibility, it could equally be the case that his ginger roots were showing through which could not easily be described as "streaky".

Additionally, the conditions in which Valerie witnessed the hair were at night so you are assuming that in the passing headlights that the murderer's hair was sufficiently lit and that Valerie was taking particular notice of the hair rather than facial features.

The brown eyes comment has been thoroughly discredited, and Woffinden accepts this in his book.

KR,
Vic.

[Limehouse]

Hi Derrick,

A couple of points, how does "tacky" or "streaky" equate to "exactly the right hair colour and condition that Hanratty would have had at the time of the A6 murder"? And as Ron pointed out, why did only 2 of the 11 or so witnesses notice that?

Your assumption that Carole France redyed the hair because it was looking streaky is one possibility, it could equally be the case that his ginger roots were showing through which could not easily be described as "streaky".

Additionally, the conditions in which Valerie witnessed the hair were at night so you are assuming that in the passing headlights that the murderer's hair was sufficiently lit and that Valerie was taking particular notice of the hair rather than facial features.

The brown eyes comment has been thoroughly discredited, and Woffinden accepts this in his book.

KR,
Vic.

Fair enough Victor - but equally - Skillet did not comment on the condition of Hanratty's hair either. In fact - under cross questioning - he struggled to describe the hair at all and virtually admitted he had not paid much attention to it.

[Derrick]

...A couple of points, how does "tacky" or "streaky" equate to "exactly the right hair colour and condition that Hanratty would have had at the time of the A6 murder"? And as Ron pointed out, why did only 2 of the 11 or so witnesses notice that?

Your assumption that Carole France redyed the hair because it was looking streaky is one possibility, it could equally be the case that his ginger roots were showing through which could not easily be described as "streaky".

Additionally, the conditions in which Valerie witnessed the hair were at night so you are assuming that in the passing headlights that the murderer's hair was sufficiently lit and that Valerie was taking particular notice of the hair rather than facial features.

The brown eyes comment has been thoroughly discredited, and Woffinden accepts this in his book...

Hello Victor
In response to your couple of points.
Mrs Walker and Mr Larman both said that his hair was dark and streaky looking. You can obviously appreciate that they said his hair was at least dark.
Mrs Jones at trial talked to Mr Evans during a break where she confessed that his hair was different from when she first saw him.

Although not a witness at trial, the actor Mr DaCosta saw a man resembling Hanratty on a train north from Euston on the 22nd August 1961. Mr DaCosta realised that the man had obvious dyed hair. As an actor Mr DaCosta was accustomed to recognising such things. Mrs Walker and Mr Larman spotted the same thing.

Plus you said in post#5734

...It's the increasing connections between Hanratty and the murder that corroborate eachother and make it very probable. If you take each piece of evidence in isolation then it's easier to doubt.

I agree entirely with what you say that I've emboldened. You have to take all of the evidence together. Same goes for the Rhyl witnesses eh?

As for your point about Carole France, please reread my post. I did say that his natural ginger hair colour was coming through. Carole Frances evidence is the most compelling as to Hanratty's hair colour and condition and is corroborated only by Mrs Walker and Mr Larman and by default, Mrs Jones.

You may have not seen the effects of dying ones hair jet black. My brother did it many moons back and his hair was mid brown colour. After a couple of weeks it looked bloody awful, glossy black and dark auburn in patches. It wasn't just his roots either, it were reet streaky.

Again with Valerie's glimpse, reread my post. I assumed nothing of the sort. It is my opinion that Valerie did not get a good view of the killer at all. See my previous posts on this for my view.

As for the brown eyes point, again reread my post. I also mentioned blue eyes Victor. Plus I was talking about both identikit pictures, Both have dark eyes! And seeing that both Skilett and Trower didn't see the drivers hair then any contribution to that part of the second identikit by them is unreliable.

Derrick

[NickB]

Mr Larman says at about 7.30 on the corner of Kinmel Street he directed a man to Ingledene, when the sun was shining on his hair. Hanratty claimed to arrive on the 8.19 bus, just before sunset, and said he walked around the streets for some time seeking a place to stay and that it was dark when he arrived at Ingledene.

The enquiry agents for the defence said of Mrs Walker: “When seen by us she was not definite in anything but gave the impression she wanted to be in on it.”

[Natalie Severn]

Mr Larman says at about 7.30 on the corner of Kinmel Street he directed a man to Ingledene, when the sun was shining on his hair. Hanratty claimed to arrive on the 8.19 bus, just before sunset, and said he walked around the streets for some time seeking a place to stay and that it was dark when he arrived at Ingledene.

Hi Nick,
I have always thought Mr Larman"s statement to Mr Oliver in London, who was working for inquiry agents employed by the defence,to be quite critical.It is dated February 21st 1962.
Although its true that he remembers the time as "about 7.30 pm" everything else matches up.
Rhyl being a seaside town appears to stay light much longer than most of the built up areas of London .There is a huge bay of Irish Sea stretching to Llandudno over which the sun sets and throws a blazing light not only over the bay but spreading as far as the Snowdonia range of mountains .through the towns of Prestatyn, Rhyl, Abergele Conwy and Llandudno as well as the surrounding countryside, and everywhere is strongly lit-so I believe his dyed hair would have been noticeable.
The junction of Bodford Street and Kinmel Street is also an ideal spot to point out Ingledene as it stands directly opposite the Windsor Hotel which Larman stated he used as a landmark to locate Mrs Jones" B&B ,"Ingledene" ,to the young man who resembled Hanratty.
Best
Norma

It is easy to be confused about what time it is,I am in Rhyl now and the sun still has not set and it is just 7.07 pm and the sun is still shining brightly in a bright blue sky.

[Victor]

Mrs Walker and Mr Larman both said that his hair was dark and streaky looking. You can obviously appreciate that they said his hair was at least dark.

Hi Derrick,

Fair enough, dark hair is a match to Hanratty and a large proportion of the young British male population, it's not exactly conclusive is it? And of course, the "streaky" part could be absolutely wrong.

Mrs Jones at trial talked to Mr Evans during a break where she confessed that his hair was different from when she first saw him.

Mrs Jones confessed and I believe gave in evidence that the man who stayed at Ingledene had different coloured hair to Hanratty's in the dock.

Although not a witness at trial, the actor Mr DaCosta saw a man resembling Hanratty on a train north from Euston on the 22nd August 1961. Mr DaCosta realised that the man had obvious dyed hair. As an actor Mr DaCosta was accustomed to recognising such things. Mrs Walker and Mr Larman spotted the same thing.

I find the assumption that an actor was accustomed to recognising dyed hair, quite a strange one, and of course Walker and Larman said different things "streaky" or "tacky".

Plus you said in post#5734
If you take each piece of evidence in isolation then it's easier to doubt.

I agree entirely with what you say that I've emboldened. You have to take all of the evidence together. Same goes for the Rhyl witnesses eh?

Fair enough, 11 different people who together confirm that a man resembling Hanratty was wandering round Rhyl that evening looking for lodgings - hardly a rare event in a seaside resort. At a time before Hanratty claims to arrive there - see Nick's post. Without luggage which Foot explains by adding in extra details about leaving his luggage at Ingledene before continuing his search, which is unconfirmed by Mrs Jones.

As for your point about Carole France, please reread my post. I did say that his natural ginger hair colour was coming through. Carole Frances evidence is the most compelling as to Hanratty's hair colour and condition and is corroborated only by Mrs Walker and Mr Larman and by default, Mrs Jones.

You said...

His hair was dyed black some 3 weeks before the murder by Carole France. On the weekend following the murder, Carole suggested that his hair be redyed because his natural ginger was obviously growing back.

"was obviously" could mean either you are quoting or summarising what Carole actually said, or you are assuming that was the reason Carole made the suggestion. In either case it's an assumption that the ginger growing back would make the hair looky "streaky" or "tacky".

You may have not seen the effects of dying ones hair jet black. My brother did it many moons back and his hair was mid brown colour. After a couple of weeks it looked bloody awful, glossy black and dark auburn in patches. It wasn't just his roots either, it were reet streaky.

Personally I've seen black-dyed hair growing back from the roots, but then it depends on the dye used, a temporary dye would wash out and appear patchy which I suppose may be described as "streaky", but there's no mention made whether the dye was temporary or permanent, so no absolute corroboration there.

KR,
Vic.

[Derrick]

...Hanratty claimed to arrive on the 8.19 bus...

Hi Nick

Did he?

Derrick

[Derrick]

Pamela Patt

"By the time we got to the Harrow Road, the bus was full and remained like this until we arrived at Victoria... In the first journey to Kilburn the passengers were all regular ones... I did not see anything suspicious during the whole of this journey."
(Woffinden, 1999. p191)

So if Hanratty was on his way to Liverpool to send a useless alibi telegram to the Frances' how could he have put the gun on the bus?

Derrick

[NickB]

Hi Nick

Did he?

Derrick

Not exactly, I confess.

He said that he thought the bus departed from Liverpool at about 7.30. If so then it would have been dark before he even arrived. However there wasn't a bus that departed at 7.30, the nearest was the 6.00 which arrived at Rhyl at 8.19.

Of course this raises other questions like how he managed to do so many things in Liverpool before 6.00 and why he did not know the time that it departed.

[NickB]

"In the first journey to Kilburn the passengers were all regular ones ... I did not see anything suspicious during the whole of this journey."
(Woffinden, 1999. p191)

In those 3 dots Woffinden has cut out the following:
“with one exception. At 6.10am a young man of dirty appearance, wearing a dirty raincoat got on near the Grosvenor Hotel and went to the upper deck, where he was the only passenger for a time.”

Woffinden does a similar expurgation when recounting what happened when Acott asked Alphon if he had any clothes anywhere else.

“Alphon: Yes, but they're in hotels and pawnbrokers and I'm not telling you where they are.

Acott: I shall have every pawnbroker visited and I shall probably find them ... Have you got any bags or cases?

Alphon: No."

In this case the following has been replaced by 3 dots:
"Alphon: All right, I've a pair of trousers in Thompson's in the Uxbridge Road."

So Woffinden claims that:
1) no-one was alone at the back of the bus; and
2) Alphon refused to say where any of his clothes were.
But he is omitting crucial sections from statements to support his case.

[Natalie Severn]

Just a couple of observations here :It is interesting to note that the Grosvenor Hotel was one of the hotels Alphon claims in the video that he stayed at -before he went to the Vienna Hotel which was cheaper than the Grosvenor.
Also Alphon wore a raincoat and bought a new one from a shop on Seven Sisters Road just two or three days after the murder.His clothes,when seen by Juliana Galves in the suit case on 23rd August ,were dirty.
Norma

[Limehouse]

In those 3 dots Woffinden has cut out the following:
“with one exception. At 6.10am a young man of dirty appearance, wearing a dirty raincoat got on near the Grosvenor Hotel and went to the upper deck, where he was the only passenger for a time.”

Woffinden does a similar expurgation when recounting what happened when Acott asked Alphon if he had any clothes anywhere else.

“Alphon: Yes, but they're in hotels and pawnbrokers and I'm not telling you where they are.

Acott: I shall have every pawnbroker visited and I shall probably find them ... Have you got any bags or cases?

Alphon: No."

In this case the following has been replaced by 3 dots:
"Alphon: All right, I've a pair of trousers in Thompson's in the Uxbridge Road."

So Woffinden claims that:
1) no-one was alone at the back of the bus; and
2) Alphon refused to say where any of his clothes were.
But he is omitting crucial sections from statements to support his case.

Hi Nick

Hanratty has never been described as being of dirty appearance. He was noted for his immaculate presentation. He is also not known to have worn a raincoat. Even when out of money to stay in hotels and B&Bs - he always had somewhere to go to wash and brush up - the Frances - Louise Andersons and his own parents.

Even if he had been living rough since the murder - by the early morning of 24 August - he would not have been as described by the bus conductress.

By contrast - Alphon was often described as 'scruffy' and he was known to wear a raincoat.

[NickB]

All that can be said is that a young man was alone on the top deck and could have removed the back seat unnoticed.

The killer would not want to be in normal attire at that time, and a large coat would conceal the gun and ammunition, so I don’t think the description rules out Alphon or Hanratty.

I believe Alphon can be discounted for other reasons – for example, Valerie would have noticed the ‘w’ instead of ‘r’ speech characteristic.

[Natalie Severn]

I believe Alphon can be discounted for other reasons – for example, Valerie would have noticed the ‘w’ instead of ‘r’ speech characteristic.

Perhaps, Nick.But I was doing a screen printing course recently in Central London ,where a Londoner,born and bred, led the course.He was not "over articulate" [though a brilliant artist and able to make himself quite clear], but I listened with interest at the way he pronounced both "th" and "r" . As with Alphon"s "Maybe its all free or fwee" comment [for "maybe its all three"] as pronounced in the Video tape we can link to, its sometimes quite difficult for a non London speaker to discern whether the person has a speech impediment over the use of "r" or whether the apparent "impediment" arises out of their accent when pronouncing "r".I decided our tutor"s Cockney accent was at the root of it.It is worth listening out for---I mentioned the policeman I heard who was directing a bus round a pick up lorry the other day--his pronunciation of "let the bus through" sounded like "Let the bus fru or more accurately f-w-ruw"--its as though the "r" became slightly distorted when it followed his rushed speech,which is possibly something we need to bear in mind over a London accent,
Best,
Norma

[Tony]

Michael Mansfield.

Just as a matter of interest these are the present day thoughts of Michael Mansfield:

We argued, unsuccessfully.

Besides the risk of contamination, a sample of DNA may degrade, depending upon the atmospheric conditions under which it is kept. Prior to the development of DNA techniques in the mid 1980’s, exhibits officers and others would have been unaware of the potential for cross-contamination – for example with regard to the storage of Hanratty’s clothes when they were taken to trial in 1961.

Despite the dismissal of the appeal, doubts remain.

With regard to the Rhyl alibi: it included fine detail with regard to the Ingledene boarding house where Hanratty had stayed and the evidence of Margaret Walker who was certain of the date when a young man matching Hanratty’s description came to her house looking for lodgings, the night of the A6 murder.
This evidence was not seriously undermined in the Court of Appeal.

Tony.

Interesting that MM says: “the Ingledene boarding house where Hanratty had stayed” and not “where Hanratty said he stayed”