a6 murder

[Natalie Severn]

Regarding this question of Hanratty"s accent.Yes it was a London accent,like Michael"s, not a Cockney accent , a West London accent, not an East London accent---and they differ in a number of respects.Mrs Dinwoody lived in Liverpool and could not have been expected to be an expert in regional accent and dialect .In this context Mrs Dinwoody"s description of Hanratty"s speech makes perfect sense,since he was not the most articulate of men, we are given to understand.

[Graham]

Norma,

accent and articulation are two different things. Sounds like you're guilty of what you're accusing me of: accepting without question what someone says so long as it suits your argument. To say that it makes perfect sense that Mrs D thought the man was Scots or Welsh is a nonsense.

Graham

[Limehouse]

Indeed it is and indeed it does. But not only is DNA suspect, so too is fingerprint evidence as this case shows injustice

No we should remove the lights of perverted science and go back to good old fashioned policing methods and court procedures. In the middle-ages we had trial by ordeal, a most satisfactory procedure which involved the accused being put through some ordeal to determine his or her guilt. It was good enough back then and should be reinstated forthwith.

IF some good old fashioned policing methods had been employed following the crime (well - not all of them - not the methods that involved the accused appearing in court with numerous injuries having 'become ill' in his cell) instead of relying on the testimony of a collection of old lags - perhaps the DNA would not have been necessary as far more people would have been satisfied that fair investigation and trial had taken place.

[RonIpstone]

IF some good old fashioned policing methods had been employed following the crime (well - not all of them - not the methods that involved the accused appearing in court with numerous injuries having 'become ill' in his cell) instead of relying on the testimony of a collection of old lags - perhaps the DNA would not have been necessary as far more people would have been satisfied that fair investigation and trial had taken place.

I agree. Nudds's evidence was severely compromised by the second statement he made. Val's evidence was severely compromised by the false identification made at the first parade. This was caused by Acott believing that Alphon was his man and trying to make the inconvenient evidence fit the case against Alphon.

[Graham]

I think it was Louis Blom-Cooper who expressed severe concern that Hanratty should not have been convicted on the strength of the prosecution evidence, but he did qualify that by saying this does not necessarily imply that Hanratty was innocent.

Couldn't agree more.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Norma,

accent and articulation are two different things. Sounds like you're guilty of what you're accusing me of: accepting without question what someone says so long as it suits your argument. To say that it makes perfect sense that Mrs D thought the man was Scots or Welsh is a nonsense.

Graham

Graham, I spent many years studying and assessing the effects of accents ,bidialectism, bilingualism and other linguistic influences on the school performance of pupils from these speech communities as well as analysing the effects these may have on the listening ,speaking and learning skills and the acquisition of the sub skills of reading and writing of London school children,particularly of those children who were born into families where the first language or the parental dialect was a different one from that of the host language or dialect .I was responsible for assessing and monitoring the effects not only of the various stages of acquiring another language on the school performance of school age pupils in a large London Borough but also for directing other teachers in how best to support such children who may have been struggling because of linguistic differences in school. I also undertook post graduate M.Phil Linguistic research , to support all this my work in which I already had a first degree in linguistics .I am qualified to write on the subject and have also written extensively for schools on the issue of bilingualism and bidialectism.
Norma

[Graham]

Graham, I spent many years studying and assessing the effects of accents ,bidialectism, bilingualism and other linguistic influences on the school performance of pupils from these speech communities as well as analysing the effects these may have on the listening ,speaking and learning skills and the acquisition of the sub skills of reading and writing of London school children,particularly of those children who were born into families where the first language or the parental dialect was a different one from that of the host language or dialect .I was responsible for assessing and monitoring the effects not only of the various stages of acquiring another language on the school performance of school age pupils in a large London Borough but also for directing other teachers in how best to support such children who may have been struggling because of linguistic differences in school. I also undertook post graduate M.Phil Linguistic research , to support all this my work in which I already had a first degree in linguistics .I am qualified to write on the subject and have also written extensively for schools on the issue of bilingualism and bidialectism.
Norma

Oh right.......

Graham

[jimarilyn]

That's shot 'em down good style Norma, good on you.

To Acott's ear Hanratty was a well spoken Londoner.
To Olive Dinwoodie's ear Hanratty sounded a bit Scottish or Welsh.
To William Nudds's ear Hanratty sounded 'possibly Irish'.

I'm a Scouser and I've often been mistaken for either Scottish or Irish by people from other parts of the country who are not accustomed to a Liverpool accent.

Hanratty's dad was Irish and his mother came from the North East. It's only natural that somebody from such a background would assimilate an accent that was not fully Cockney but a combination of all three, and not truly determinable.


See you here, Jimmy !

[Graham]

That's shot 'em down good style Norma, good on you.

To Acott's ear Hanratty was a well spoken Londoner.
To Olive Dinwoodie's ear Hanratty sounded a bit Scottish or Welsh.
To William Nudds's ear Hanratty sounded 'possibly Irish'.

I'm a Scouser and I've often been mistaken for either Scottish or Irish by people from other parts of the country who are not accustomed to a Liverpool accent.

Hanratty's dad was Irish and his mother came from the North East. It's only natural that somebody from such a background would assimilate an accent that was not fully Cockney but a combination of all three, and not truly determinable.

Norma shot no-one down, least of all me, because what she wrote is really irrelevant to the debate. I could say that because my wife is Irish I'm an expert in the Irish accent - which I'm not, and to say so would be equally irrelevant.

And if you seriously believe what you just wrote in the first paragraph, Mr JM, then words utterly fail me....this is blatant bending of known information to fit your own specious argument. The Flat Earth Society thrives.

Graham

[RonIpstone]

I think it was Louis Blom-Cooper who expressed severe concern that Hanratty should not have been convicted on the strength of the prosecution evidence, but he did qualify that by saying this does not necessarily imply that Hanratty was innocent.

Couldn't agree more.

Graham

My view entirely. We will have to assume that the evidence Hanratty adduced was of such an unsatisfactory nature that it led the jury to the conclusion he was undoubtedly lying and his witnesses were mistaken about any particulars which might have given Jim an alibi.

[jimarilyn]

Regarding Acott and Mrs Dinwoody. I can"t find it right now-the pages in Foot"s 1973 book are given under one generic heading.The point is Acott appears to have believed Hanratty was the man seen by Mrs Dinwoody and her granddaughter .

You're correct, Norma. Acott was impressed with Mrs Dinwoodie and thought her a very trustworthy witness. He believed that it was indeed (that's for big Ron) the Tuesday that the sweetshop incident took place, and even suggested that there was some sort of air service which Hanratty could have connected with to get him to the cornfield in time for the 9.30 pm abduction.

[jimarilyn]

Norma shot no-one down, least of all me, because what she wrote is really irrelevant to the debate. I could say that because my wife is Irish I'm an expert in the Irish accent - which I'm not, and to say so would be equally irrelevant.

And if you seriously believe what you just wrote in the first paragraph, Mr JM, then words utterly fail me....this is blatant bending of known information to fit your own specious argument. The Flat Earth Society thrives.

Graham

Truly pathetic, but par for the course. Why am I not surprised ?


Mr JM (whoever he may be), from Holland (where the earth is very flat)

[Graham]

Truly pathetic, but par for the course. Why am I not surprised ?


Mr JM (whoever he may be), from Holland (where the earth is very flat)

As your reply is, but I've got used to your pathetic posts for the past however many years - and your wit, so-called, is even more pathetic.

I can't remember how long it is since this thread started on the old forum, but IMHO it has today reached its true low point with the statements put forth by supposedly intelligent people regarding how Hanratty may or may not have spoken. I try to be polite (sometimes I lose it), I try to be reasonable, I try to back up what I say with evidence gleaned from the publications written about the A6, I accept correction if needs be. But you appear to contribute very little to this debate except to drone on with all the old, discredited arguments. I could go on, but you're not worth losing my cool over.

Graham

[Limehouse]

As your reply is, but I've got used to your pathetic posts for the past however many years - and your wit, so-called, is even more pathetic.

I can't remember how long it is since this thread started on the old forum, but IMHO it has today reached its true low point with the statements put forth by supposedly intelligent people regarding how Hanratty may or may not have spoken. I try to be polite (sometimes I lose it), I try to be reasonable, I try to back up what I say with evidence gleaned from the publications written about the A6, I accept correction if needs be. But you appear to contribute very little to this debate except to drone on with all the old, discredited arguments. I could go on, but you're not worth losing my cool over.

Graham

Be fair Graham - with regard to the debate about how Hanratty spoek - it was a very important deciding factor in making up Valerie's mind. Having pondered for twenty minutes - she asked each man in the line-up to speak and it was Hanratty's 'finking' instead of 'thinking' that apparently made up her mind. Other wintesses - called and not called at the trial - made reference to a man peddling watches or asking directions - who may very well have been Hanratty - and whose accent seemed to vary but the distinguishing features for some of those witnesses was London and Irish - both of which Hanratty was exp[osed to. It is not undreasonable to assume that he may have varied his accent slightly according to whom he was speaking. Hanratty's speech is very relevant to the whole case.

[RonIpstone]

It is not undreasonable to assume that he may have varied his accent slightly according to whom he was speaking. Hanratty's speech is very relevant to the whole case.

Julie

But why should he vary it to incomprehensible Welsh/Scotch when speaking to the trustworthy Mrs Dinwoodie? Why indeed?

Ron