a6 murder

[Natalie Severn]

No wonder then Graham and Ron ,how Nudds got so mixed up then -he didnt really seem to know who slept where or when in the Vienna Hotel -in fact he didnt seem to know whether he was on his arse or his elbow most of the time!
But the prosecution believed whatever tale he chose to tell it seems!
Regarding Acott and Mrs Dinwoody. I can"t find it right now-the pages in Foot"s 1973 book are given under one generic heading.The point is Acott appears to have believed Hanratty was the man seen by Mrs Dinwoody and her granddaughter .He had sent men to investigate [-though he withheld this from the court as long as he could until Sherrard forced it out of him].Because his other prosecution witnesses stated Hanratty was in London on the 21st,Acott was of the view that Mrs Dinwoody must have seen Hanratty on 22nd, but I will look it up.
You dismiss everything with such certainty ! Every witness in Liverpool or Rhyl is a liar but you accept without question the statements of Soho gangsters like Nudds and Langdale and France!

[Natalie Severn]

With regards to the London dialect and accent Hanratty spoke with , there would almost certainly have been influences from his father"s Irish accent on the way his son"s pronounced their mid vowel sounds.
Cockney,like Scouse has changed over time to incorporate features of the languages and dialects that its immigrant settlers brought with them.During and after the potato famine large numbers of Irish settled in both Liverpool and London and in the East End in particular ,significant numbers of Eastern European Jews.All played their part in gradual shifts of enunciation ,speech patterning and the coinage of new words and phrases in London and Liverpool usage.Hanratty spoke with a London accent,not a Cockney or specifically East London type accent.His accent would have been similar to his brother Michael"s wouldnt it, and you can hear that he has a London accent,not a typical Cockney accent, with traces of an Irish lilt.

[TheShortArtist]

More DNA

Hi All,

To say DNA to me is like saying Microchip Technology to your Cocker Spaniel but I thought that the
following may be of interest to A6 posters. I don't know how to present it in the proper manner but these are
the salient details. Perhaps someone can find it and determine its authenticity as there is not enough space for
some interesting points, especially of the prosecuting Judge's remarks to the accused. It appears that no crime
was committed in the first place.

http://www.couriermail.com.auhttp://...-1225807904144

Try "farah jama dna"

Local news item: Victoria, Australia.
Compensation for man jailed in DNA mix-up.-Yahoo!7
Emma O'Sullivan, ABC
June 29, 2010.

The Victorian Government has awarded compensation to a man who was wrongly convicted of rape because
of a DNA mix-up.

In 2008 Farah Jama was found guilty of raping a woman based solely on DNA evidence.
He was jailed for 16 months before the court of appeal ordered his release.

In a review, retired Supreme Court Judge Frank Vincent found that swabs from the alleged victim were accidently
contaminated with Jama's DNA.

Mr Jama has settled his claim for $A550,000, but his lawyers are still hoping he will get a personal apology.

TSA

[Graham]

Norma,

Every witness in Liverpool or Rhyl is a liar but you accept without question the statements of Soho gangsters like Nudds and Langdale and France!

I have never called the Rhyl 'witnesses' liars - if you insist that I have, please refer me to the appropriate post. With regard to Nudds and Langdale, please refer to my recent post and read again what I said about them. It's a bit rich being accused of 'accepting statements without question' when virtually every Hanratty supporter posting to this thread appears to accept without question everything said by, for example, Foot, Woffinden and Justice. People who live in glass houses, etc....

Graham

[Graham]

Hi TSA,

thanks for your post, but your link doesn't work.

The Australian DNA case is interesting in as much as it seems that contamination was the problem rather than the technique.

Cheers,

Graham

[Limehouse]

Ron,

1] if the DNA in the A6 Case is suspect, then one must assume that the DNA in other cases is also suspect. How many cases? - ten? A hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? Now I keep a fairly close internet watch on what's going in the world of true crime, both in the UK and elsewhere, and I don't at this moment in time recall coming across one single current case in which a DNA analysis is challenged as being totally wrong. As always, I stand to be corrected on this.

2] something that only recently occurred to me. The charge of rape was dropped in the trial of James Hanratty (I believe 'held in reserve' is the appropriate term). In which case, why should Valerie's underwear have been brought into the court as a possible exhibit after the first day of the trial? If this is the case, then it stands to reason that it would have been stored seperately to, for example, Hanratty's trousers, which weregermaine to the case against him. Do we know for sure if Valerie's underwear was brought to the court every day of the trial; or not?

Graham

Hi Graham

I think the difference in this case re the DNA is the age of the exhibits - the fact that DNA had to be extracted from a body buried for nearly forty years and the method used to extract or analyse DNA - LCN. In most other cases the DNA is fresher - but I could be wrong.

re the exhibits - they may have been stored separately during the trial but no necessarily before the trial. They may also have been analysed in the same lab by the same people and placed on the same bench etc.

Re the Rhyl witnesses - why would they come forward before the alibi was offered? They may not even have paid much attention to the trial until Rhyl was mentioned. Also - concerning visual identity - these people must have had a clearer view of Hanratty than Valerie did on the night of the events?

[Limehouse]

With regards to the London dialect and accent Hanratty spoke with , there would almost certainly have been influences from his father"s Irish accent on the way his son"s pronounced their mid vowel sounds.
Cockney,like Scouse has changed over time to incorporate features of the languages and dialects that its immigrant settlers brought with them.During and after the potato famine large numbers of Irish settled in both Liverpool and London and in the East End in particular ,significant numbers of Eastern European Jews.All played their part in gradual shifts of enunciation ,speech patterning and the coinage of new words and phrases in London and Liverpool usage.Hanratty spoke with a London accent,not a Cockney or specifically East London type accent.His accent would have been similar to his brother Michael"s wouldnt it, and you can hear that he has a London accent,not a typical Cockney accent, with traces of an Irish lilt.

I agree totally with this Norma and I think it has been raised before - many moons back - that Hanratty may have had a slight Irish lilt or at least he may have been able to fall into an Irish lilt when he needed to - which would have been quite useful in Liverpool one would think.

[Graham]

Hi Julie,

I agree totally with this Norma and I think it has been raised before - many moons back - that Hanratty may have had a slight Irish lilt or at least he may have been able to fall into an Irish lilt when he needed to - which would have been quite useful in Liverpool one would think.

I have never seen it reported that Hanratty spoke with anything other than a typical Cockney accent. Sherrard said that he had a normal, average Londoner's voice. Prof Dennis Fry, Phonetics Dept London University, examined Hanratty and said that he had a typical London accent with no detectable dialectical traits or personal peculiarities.

Just listen to Michael Hanratty's accent - not much Irish there.

Also, while we're on the subject, Mrs Dinwoody said that the man who asked her for directions to Tarleton Road was hard to understand and she thought he had a Scots or Welsh accent....

Graham

[RonIpstone]

His accent would have been similar to his brother Michael"s wouldnt it, and you can hear that he has a London accent,not a typical Cockney accent, with traces of an Irish lilt.

Well Norma, this would seem to rule out Hanratty as being the person asking for directions in Mrs Dinwoodie's shop. You will recall that she described the person as being difficult to understand with an accent that was either Welsh or Scottish. No one at the trial found Jim hard to understand; Mike Sherrard said he had a normal and average young Londoner's voice; a speech and phonetics expert had examined Hanratty before the trial and could detect no dialect other than that of a Londoner; Mike Hanratty is coherent and easy to understand; I can detect no Irish lilt in his voice.

Ron

[Limehouse]

Hi Ron anbd Graham

The fact that Hanratty spoke with a London accent (not Cockeny - he was a west Londoner and there are differences between accents in different parts of London) does not rule out the possibility that he adopted aspects of other accents - particularly Irish - when it suited him In Liverpool - he may have concluded that the hint of an Irish accent would have made him more welcome to others.

[RonIpstone]

Hi Ron anbd Graham

he may have concluded that the hint of an Irish accent would have made him more welcome to others.

Hi Julie

But why when he needed directions did he adopt an incomprehensible Welsh/Scotch accent to speak to Mrs Dinwoodie?

Ron

[jimarilyn]

Farah Jama

Hi All,

To say DNA to me is like saying Microchip Technology to your Cocker Spaniel but I thought that the
following may be of interest to A6 posters. I don't know how to present it in the proper manner but these are
the salient details. Perhaps someone can find it and determine its authenticity as there is not enough space for
some interesting points, especially of the prosecuting Judge's remarks to the accused. It appears that no crime
was committed in the first place.

http://www.couriermail.com.auhttp://...-1225807904144

Hi TSA,

This link you provided does not work, however after googling the name "Farah Jama" (not to be confused with his brother Py) I came across the following website which may be what you're referring to . Mr Jama's is a very disturbing case and makes extremely interesting reading indeed......

http://open.salon.com/blog/lesh/2010/06/17/intolerable_in_this_society_farah_jama

[RonIpstone]

Hi TSA,

This link you provided does not work, however after googling the name "Farah Jama" (not to be confused with his brother Py) I came across the following website which may be what you're referring to . Mr Jama's is a very disturbing case and makes extremely interesting reading indeed......


http://open.salon.com/blog/lesh/2010...ety_farah_jama

Indeed it is and indeed it does. But not only is DNA suspect, so too is fingerprint evidence as this case shows injustice

No we should remove the lights of perverted science and go back to good old fashioned policing methods and court procedures. In the middle-ages we had trial by ordeal, a most satisfactory procedure which involved the accused being put through some ordeal to determine his or her guilt. It was good enough back then and should be reinstated forthwith.

[Graham]

No we should remove the lights of perverted science and go back to good old fashioned policing methods and court procedures. In the middle-ages we had trial by ordeal, a most satisfactory procedure which involved the accused being put through some ordeal to determine his or her guilt. It was good enough back then and should be reinstated forthwith.

I'm with you on this. Walking the distance of one chain clutching red-hot iron bars was one way - if the burns healed the poor bugger was guilty because the devil was assisting him, if they didn't heal he was guilty because obviously God was ignoring him. Or what about a ducking-stool as per Monty Python's Holy Grail?

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Graham

I think the difference in this case re the DNA is the age of the exhibits - the fact that DNA had to be extracted from a body buried for nearly forty years and the method used to extract or analyse DNA - LCN. In most other cases the DNA is fresher - but I could be wrong.

re the exhibits - they may have been stored separately during the trial but no necessarily before the trial. They may also have been analysed in the same lab by the same people and placed on the same bench etc.

Re the Rhyl witnesses - why would they come forward before the alibi was offered? They may not even have paid much attention to the trial until Rhyl was mentioned. Also - concerning visual identity - these people must have had a clearer view of Hanratty than Valerie did on the night of the events?

Absolutely correct Julie.In fact there was so little left on the fragment in 1995 when it was initially "DNA" tested that they were unable to find traces of anything at all !
Anyway I have mentioned several times that the knickers were examined in the same lab ,on either the same day or the following day ,as Hanratty"s trousers were excised of dried seminal fluid ,meaning the merest flake could have been the contaminant ,moreover they were the first to be examined,followed by the knickers and slips.The small piece we are told that was cut off,happened then, on 28th or 29th December 1961,after the trousers had been examined .