a6 murder

[Limehouse]

I'll do better than that and give you four examples...........

a] Page 45 Jean Justice book "Murder vs Murder" (1964)........

Michael Gregsten, Valerie Storie and the sinister intruder remained in the cornfield for almost two hours. What happened during that period was so nauseating that I can understand why Miss Storie has so far said nothing of the matter. Gregsten died that night, so that left only two people who knew the truth. Although I have never spoken to Valerie Storie, I have been told precisely what took place in the Morris Minor in the cornfield. If Valerie will admit that I am right when I state that she and Gregsten were forced to have sexual intercourse together, then she will also realise that only one person could have given me the information. The murderer.

b] Page 68 Justice......

For instance, at one stage she told the gunman that she wanted to go to the lavatory. His reply was, "If I don't go to the lavatory, nobody goes to the lavatory." And that information was given to me neither by Miss Storie nor yet by by James Hanratty. I heard it from the man who actually used those words on the night of the murder.

c] Page 321 Woffinden book "Hanratty- The Final Verdict" (1997)...............

"When I reproached them on their illicit love, Gregsten said, 'That is nothing to do with you.' I became heated and said that everything which happened was my business. that I could see civilisation slipping into vice and decadence. He laughed and this antagonized me more. As I spoke with them more and more his mentality emerged and I came to detest and despise him and knew he would be no loss to the world. "

d] Page 351 Woffinden.....

"But that didn't work. Gregsten had two chances to go, when he got out for cigarettes and milk, but he kept coming back. when I complained to them about their immorality they laughed and told me to mind my bloody business. There was an awful lot of talking in that five hours in the car. Gregsten was cocky the whole time, trying to take the mickey. I knew that the only way to break up the affair was to kill them."



PS. It surprises me that you didn't know of the above 4 examples.

Good stuff James. I have never been totally sure about Alphon but seeing those quotes all together like that kind of hits you hard.

As I said in an earlier post - Justice did a good job in giving us an insight into Alphon's mind and behaviour and I remain convinced that the stress of his relationship with Alphon and his reason for persuing thaqt relationship almost destroyed him. Indeed - he resolved to marry his long-term friend Ann as a result of the realisation of that destructiveness in Alphon.

That third quote - where he describes how Gresten laughed at the rebuke about immorality has a ring of truth to it. It sounds like a genuine event and a likely reaction. It's a bit scarey actually.

[Natalie Severn]

When I asked at the library about the books they had on the A6 ,Graham, both people standing near me knew exactly what I was asking about though the librarian herself was uncertain.However one person in the small group around the information desk told me it was in the local history section upstairs and the next person to her said he had seen it "only in the past week or two". "Might there be anything in the local history section about the people who claimed to have seen Hanratty in Rhyl?" I asked .The man looked surprised," " Why--- he was definitely here " he said "no doubt about it!"-----and he looked at me a bit sharply!
And a lady who used to work in the shop in Kinmel Street that carries out clothing alterations, and who I know well , remembered the case,"He did come here [to Kinmel Street-] and he stayed down the road -it was local knowledge."And another remembered "the house had a green bath in the upstairs room.The lady who ran it remembered him well." I havent begun to ask around properly yet but in the local book store when I asked if they had any books on the case the sales person remembered the case----and remembered that the general view was he had been in Rhyl when the murder took place and they had hanged an innocent man.Just a few people I spoke to around here.

[Natalie Severn]

Norma

It is a very good point you make about not noticing the decor of even the position of the windows. I stay in a fair few hotels and could tell you whether they were clean and comfortable but could not recall at all the colour of the bedspread or the walls or any details like that. My husband could not even recall whether the room had a bath- a shower or both!

Also - I believe that if he had recalled every detail - people would say he could do that because he needed it for an alibi. The fact that his recall was poor perhaps indicates that he was not expecting to have to recount every detail in court as he stood trial for murder.

Well thats quite so, Julie.Damned if he did and damned if he didnt .

[Natalie Severn]

I read Jean Justice"s book -the English one, and thought it was very lucid, concise and usually to the point .Alphon"s "conversations" with him sometimes seem very bizarre indeed and stray into the sort of nightmarish meanderings---typical of schizophrenia---as is his ability to hold onto enough of a sense of reality and self preservation not to say anything that might later lead him directly to the gallows.
He never gave Acott permission either to look through his case or his clothing---I found that interesting.

[Tony]

Hi everyone,

I’ve not been on for quite some time; I’m very busy on some other stuff but I do look in every day.

Just a couple of points really and I might have a bit more time shortly to join the debate.

Norma says about people in Rhyl and their recollections of the case and how some are convinced Hanratty was there and was hanged as an innocent man.

I’ve told this tale on here once before but it was yonks ago so I’ll give it another run out.

After reading Paul foot’s book in 1971 and becoming convinced of Hanratty’s innocence, as indeed others were who contribute on here but have now changed their minds, I wrote a letter to our local paper.
At the time I lived in a small village in the Peak District (I live in an even smaller one now) and I used to have a wander down to one of the two pubs in the village.
We used to play darts, dominoes and cards; you know the sort of thing, anyway a policeman started to come in and join us. He was a good sort, he joined in and paid his round when it was his turn so no problem.
A couple of weeks after my letter was published I went to the bar for a round and the bobby was there. He motioned for me to come over to him and said: “So you’re the one banging on about Hanratty being framed; well a bit of advice, Pal keep your thoughts to yourself and don’t go writing any more letters to the paper”.

He meant it alright and after that night he never came in the pub again.

On another note I see that in his debate with Jimarilyn Graham is very adamant about Hanratty’s guilt and how he accepts what Valerie Storie says as beyond reproach. I am mentioning Graham but not singling him out because he is not alone.
But tell me this: Graham has been on here and said that he once, and for a long time, thought Hanratty had been the victim of a miscarriage of justice. If that is so it follows that he must have thought that Valerie Storie was either mistaken or led by Acott. He also must have disbelieved Anderson, Nudds, France, Langdale, the Redbridge witnesses etc. He must also have been sceptical of Acott and Oxford.
He must also have had some belief in Rhyl otherwise why was he a supporter of James Hanratty?

Tony.

Julie,

I was going to mention about your husband not having any recall as to whether your hotel rooms have a bath or a shower. I don’t want to bring your husband’s washing arrangements or lack of them on to here so I will not mention it. I know you will be pleased with me for that.

[jimornot?]

First time posting for some time but have been interested in the ongoing debates although like many, the DNA debates unfortunately leave me a bit cool – I feel the efficacy of LCN testing seems to depend on personal perspectives and can be debated without conclusion ad infinitum.

I like Graham’s post (1504) speculating on how Hanratty might appear in 2010. Would he have been a shaven headed gym-attending macho guy or would he have been a bit of a narcissist (altho’ I agree with the thought that he probably would have been prepared to mix things if needed)?

I wonder what Alphon would have been like as a 30 year old today? What would his appearance be, what would he do? I am also intrigued to know what happened to those peripheral figures in this case e.g. Louise Anderson, a lot more on Bill Ewer, Langdale, Nudds (I think he died quite soon after Hanratty was hanged). I have made some attempts at research albeit with limited time but get nowhere fast. I am incredibly impressed at the knowledge many show irrespective of their stance and wonder where the best sources are beyond the main books on the case.

Does anyone know much more about Alphon after the early 70’s up to his death (in a London nursing home I seem to recall) last year? I believe his mother lived in Brighton for some years and there was film of him mooching around there in a documentary some years back. I wonder what went through his twisted mind in those last 20 years or so? What did he do for a living – probably much of what he did before but without any freeloading from newspapers (at best, a source of a lot of money years before)

Keep up the good work guys

Viv

[jimornot?]

Jean Justice

Dear all

I haven't read his book(s) so cannot comment on them

Not sure how I see him and I can see why he could polarise opinions. I do recall Vic as saying he met him years ago and wasn't taken with him - anything to add Vic? Was this about the time when you thought Hanratty might have been innocent - in which case it would have been a strong reaction to 'dislike' (my words not yours Vic, I hasten to add) someone who appeared to be fightging a cause you may have believed in at that time.

atb

Viv

[Graham]

Hello Tony,

good to see you back on the thread.

Yes, years ago I did consider that Hanratty might have been the victim of a miscarriage of justice, and what I have also said on a number of occasions on this thread is that I don't think he should have been convicted on the evidence presented at his trial. I have also said that had his case been tried in Scotland, the verdict would almost certainly have been 'Not Proven'.

I have, it is true, referred to the days when I was younger, longer-haired and more radical, and to my admiration for Paul Foot; when I read Foot's book when it was first published I inclined to Hanratty's innocence, largely because I felt that if Foot supported a case it was worthy of support. The support of John Lennon was also persuasive, although he soon tired of it and fell by the wayside.

However, on coming back to the A6 Case a number of years later, and re-reading Foot's book rather more carefully, I came to the conclusion that Foot was wrong. I still think that Foot was a great investigative journalist, but you can't be right all the time, and I do believe he backed the wrong horse as far as Hanratty goes. It was very easy to believe in Foot's reasoning that Alphon was the murderer, that Hanratty was stitched up, etc., etc., but closer scrutiny has convinced me that none of this holds water. The Rhyl Alibi looks convincing at first sight, but read deeper and it becomes very plain that there is nothing in it. I would never deny that Acott's behaviour was anything other than unethical as far as non-disclosure of evidence is concerned, but I can't under any circumstances accept Hanratty's Rhyl Alibi. I feel sure that had he not changed his alibi he might have stood a chance. I'm also fairly well convinced that the physical appearance of Valerie must have had a serious effect upon the jury.

I also read Jean Justice's 'Murder v. Murder' about the time it was published, and even while I felt that Hanratty might have been innocent this book struck me as being the work of a nut-case - or more accurately, a pair of nut-cases. I don't think Justice did any real favours for Hanratty in the long run. I could probably write a book myself on why I believe that Hanratty was guilty.....

By the time I joined this thread on the pre-crash Forum, I was convinced that Hanratty was guilty, and remain convinced. You have to understand that in the radical 1960's it was very cool to support virtually anything that would rankle the perceived Establishment at the time. I went on anti-Vietnam demo's, although I can hardly believe that that Graham and this Graham are the same person.

You asked a reasonable question, Tony, and I hope I've given you a reasonable answer.

KR,

Graham.

[jimornot?]

.............-and remembered that the general view was he had been in Rhyl when the murder took place and they had hanged an innocent man.Just a few people I spoke to around here.

Hi Norma

this is interesting but unfortunately as Graham wrote earlier, the defence apparently didn't feel they'd be able to convince the jury. Even with the full 'evidence' (esp witness testimonies) available, the formal appeals did not pardon Hanratty.

I have found it hard to let go of the belief in Hanratty's innocence but feel that the DNA convinces me although I have raed all the counter arguments. imagine how much harder it would be to shake a genuine feeling (even if absolutely mistaken) that you were a witness to a miscarriage of justice.

The trouble is it will always be speculation but it is fascinating to find out why they believe it so strongly even now. I am now pretty firmly in the Jim did it camp but I welcome more info on what others may dismiss out of hand as it will help keep the thread vibrant

atb

viv

[Graham]

Hi Viv,

I agree with you that we'll all be old and grey and the DNA debate will still be raging....

Interesting that you ask about the subsequent careers of some of the main characters in the case; can't help you much, I'm afraid.

You probably know that Ewer and Janet Gregsten lived together for a period, but I believe they eventually seperated. I have a vague memory that Leonard Miller discovered that Ewer was still alive around 2001, but I would think that he was an old man even then, and must be dead now.

Woffinden visited Louise Anderson (in the early 1990's?) and found her a very sick, elderly lady; she also must be dead by now.

From what I can gather Alphon carried on being Alphon - again visited by Woffinden who found him living as he'd always lived, i.e., a layabout in a rented room. I think the last time he was 'officially' found was by the police during the DNA testing, when they collected a sample of his. As you say, he died last year after a fall at his Euston lodgings. I wouldn't mind betting that for the last years of his life he lived on his state pension plus whatever benefits he could get. But - see my post of a week or so ago when I discovered that someone had contacted him and received a letter from him - the 'someone' and the content of the letter unknown.

Peter Louis Alphon....had the manager of the Alexandra Court Hotel not gone to the police about his behaviour, would the name James Hanratty be known to posterity, or would the A6 Crime have gone down in history as unsolved?

Graham

[jimornot?]

...............
Why shouldn't Valerie describe being forced to have sex, if that's what happened? She was not a shy or prudish person. The 'obvious reasons' she didn't describe being forced to have sex in the car were that it never happened.

......................
Graham

Hi Graham

On the one hand I agree that there could have been even greater revulsion at such behaviour. Then again, am I wrong in recalling that the court were given the impression that MG & VS were merely planning a car rally? Perhaps this is another example of candour that could have been seen as too indelicate to mention? Just playing devil's advocate

In fairness, I would think that Valerie would have become aware of Alphon's ramblings - how could she not be? That being so, if Alphon had revealed something not universally known then VS would surely have been less certain in her consistent assertion that she knows it was Hanratty

atb

Viv

[NickB]

Ah, the Court of Appeal judgment. Enough said.

On whose say so was this ? The prosecution witnesses, the Frances ?

It is within the section entitled 'The Facts' (points 13-74) giving the background to the case, before listing the submissions and considering them.

[RonIpstone]

Peter Louis Alphon....had the manager of the Alexandra Court Hotel not gone to the police about his behaviour, would the name James Hanratty be known to posterity, or would the A6 Crime have gone down in history as unsolved?

Graham, I suppose it would depend on what might have happened to the exhibits. The majority were destroyed after the trial as there was no longer any use for them; presumably if there had been no trial the exhibits would not have been destroyed. Therefore the answer to the question as to whether the case would remain unsolved would depend on whether Jim would have his DNA profiled.

[Graham]

Hi Graham

On the one hand I agree that there could have been even greater revulsion at such behaviour. Then again, am I wrong in recalling that the court were given the impression that MG & VS were merely planning a car rally? Perhaps this is another example of candour that could have been seen as too indelicate to mention? Just playing devil's advocate

In fairness, I would think that Valerie would have become aware of Alphon's ramblings - how could she not be? That being so, if Alphon had revealed something not universally known then VS would surely have been less certain in her consistent assertion that she knows it was Hanratty

atb

Viv

Hi Viv,

Gregsten was living alone in a flat (in Windsor?) at the time of his murder, so presumably had he and Valerie wanted sex they could have gone there and had it off in comfort all night, rather than in the confines of a Moggie Minor. Maybe they really were organising a car rally. I don't think it matters, to be honest.

As far as Jean Justice and his published 'confessions' of Alphon are concerned, I think it relevant to mention that both his books were published in France by well-known pornographers.

Graham

[jimornot?]

Hi Viv,

Gregsten was living alone in a flat (in Windsor?) at the time of his murder, so presumably had he and Valerie wanted sex they could have gone there and had it off in comfort all night, rather than in the confines of a Moggie Minor. Maybe they really were organising a car rally. I don't think it matters, to be honest.

As far as Jean Justice and his published 'confessions' of Alphon are concerned, I think it relevant to mention that both his books were published in France by well-known pornographers.

Graham

hi Graham

re para 1 - fair point. It makes even less credible to me the theory about warning them off which is pretty stretched anyway given they went to another location initially before getting to the cornfield.
re para 2 - didn't know that. any idea why?

atb

viv