a6 murder

[Graham]

I am certain that Hanratty did not stay in Ingledene on the night of the murder for the simple reason that the only room available was the room with the green bath and a skylight for a window. Hanratty's room, on the other hand, had a sink and rear windows with curtains. Whoever, if anyone, Mrs Jones let the attic to on the night of 22nd August it was not Jim Hanratty.

Quite correct, Ron. If Hanratty was recalling Ingledene or anywhere else, it was from his previous visit to Rhyl in July, or from his many stays in guest-houses elsewhere, or from a combination of the two.

Graham

[jimarilyn]

James, did you ever meet Justice? Of course you didn't, but that doesn't stop you describing him as a seeker after truth, does it? And accepting his every word as gospel? Apart from the A6 Case, what other 'truths' did he seek? None, so far as I'm aware. He was not, in my reading and interpretation of the information I have read regarding him, a particularly pleasant man. I couldn't give a toss that he gave up the sauce - so what? Hanratty himself didn't drink, and look what he did! You have a bad habit of seeing everything in black and white, James - those who support your beloved Hanratty are shining saints, and those who don't are coal-black demons. There is no in-between.

Why shouldn't Valerie describe being forced to have sex, if that's what happened? She was not a shy or prudish person. The 'obvious reasons' she didn't describe being forced to have sex in the car were that it never happened.

Why don't you just come out with it and call her a liar, James?

Graham

A well over the top post. I have never said in any of my posts that Valerie Storie was a liar. I have always thought that she was economical with the truth when circumstances suited her.

I have also on a good few occasions rightly questioned her reliability as a witness. And her recall of events.
One shining example of this can be seen in the following exchange between herself and Michael Sherrard.....

MS : "Did you not afterwards say that there was a fair resemblance between Alphon and the man who attacked you ? "

VS : "When am I supposed to have said that ? "

MS : "Some time after the parade ? "

VS : "Some time afterwards, yes."

MS : "Can you tell us to whom you made that observation ? "

VS : "In the first instance I believe it was a doctor at Stoke Mandeville hospital."

MS : "And later ? May it have been Superintendent Acott ? "

VS : "It may have been, but I do not remember."

MS : "It comes to this -- that the resemblance between Alphon and your assailant was mentioned first to a doctor and, then, to get it quite accurately, to a police officer, possibly Mr Acott himself ? "

VS : "Yes."


The importance of this exchange cannot be overstated. Here we have VS almost prepared to deny that she had said any such thing. She was obviously surprised that Michael Sherrard had gotten to know about her making these remarks. "When am I supposed to have said that ?" she asked Sherrard.
And then she says she can't remember the second person to whom she mentioned the resemblance.

[jimarilyn]

She was muddled and not 100% sure that the man in the dock was the man who came to her house. So she was not certain that the two men were one and the same, and as far as the law was concerned, her evidence was suspect.

Graham

She knew it was Hanratty who had stayed at Ingledene because he breakfasted with her and her daughter Brenda in their own living room. The only guest to have done so that August. And sitting across from Hanratty during that breakfast she was able to recall his features. She especially remembered "his lovely blue eyes".

[Graham]

So what? That proves nothing and means very little. Sherrard, doing his job, wished to establish that at some point Valerie had remarked that she felt there was a similarity in the appearance of Alphon and the gunman. Her responses to his questions are nothing to do with being 'economical with the truth' (which I've always understoof to be a euphemism for lying), but down to her lack of clear memory of that particular event - which is understandable considering what she'd gone through. She ultimately did NOT deny what Sherrard suggested she'd said, and he made his point, though not to the detriment of the honesty of Valerie Storey so far as the court was concerned.

You see what I mean about black and white - here you take an exchange between Valerie and Sherrard and use it to challenge her honesty and reliability, but the exchange between Mrs Jones and Swanwick elicits no such challenge on your part so far as Mrs J's honesty and reliability are concerned.

So my post was over the top, was it? Well, at least so far during the several years I've subscribed to this thread I've never felt the need to apologise to another poster via PM....

Graham

[NickB]

I didn't know you were privvy to all the conversations that occurred between France and Hanratty. How do you know that Hanratty didn't mention the Rhyl trip ?

In point 45 here it says:

"At no stage did James Hanratty tell any member of the France family that he had been to Rhyl."

[Graham]

She knew it was Hanratty who had stayed at Ingledene because he breakfasted with her and her daughter Brenda in their own living room. The only guest to have done so that August. And sitting across from Hanratty during that breakfast she was able to recall his features. She especially remembered "his lovely blue eyes".

James, please listen:

Mrs Jones and Brenda might have been convinced that it was Hanratty who stayed at Ingledene at the crucial time, but what is vitally important to this entire subject is that they failed to convince the court. We have only their word: there is no concrete PROOF. And that, my friend, is what is needed in a court of law - not heresay, or vague memory, or might-have-beens.

Graham

[RonIpstone]

In point 45 here it says:

"At no stage did James Hanratty tell any member of the France family that he had been to Rhyl."

If Hanratty had told Dixie that he, Hanratty, had been in Rhyl, then Sherrard would have been failing in his duty not to put this to Dixie when he gave his evidence for the prosecution.

Sherrard seems to have been conscientous and on the ball, that he never challenged Dixie on this suggests Hanratty's instructions were that he had not told Dixie about the Rhyl trip.

[jimarilyn]

In point 45 here it says:

"At no stage did James Hanratty tell any member of the France family that he had been to Rhyl."

Ah, the Court of Appeal judgment. Enough said.

On whose say so was this ? The prosecution witnesses, the Frances ?

[RonIpstone]

She knew it was Hanratty who had stayed at Ingledene because he breakfasted with her and her daughter Brenda in their own living room. The only guest to have done so that August. And sitting across from Hanratty during that breakfast she was able to recall his features. She especially remembered "his lovely blue eyes".

It does not explain Hanratty's failure to describe his room as an attic room with a green bath and a skylight, preferring to describe it as a room at the back, having a sink, a window and curtains.

[Graham]

45. When giving evidence, James Hanratty admitted sending the telegram and stated that he returned to London early Friday morning and went to see the Frances. They said this visit was on the Saturday 26 August, when he arrived at about 9am. According to Mr France, James Hanratty said that he had been waiting at the station for a couple of hours because he did not want to disturb them. He went on to say that he had stayed at the Vienna Hotel on Monday 21 August 1961 and produced the hotel bill. At no stage did James Hanratty tell any member of the France family that he had been to Rhyl.

It appears it was on Dixie France's say-so.

Graham

[RonIpstone]

The importance of this exchange cannot be overstated. Here we have VS almost prepared to deny that she had said any such thing. She was obviously surprised that Michael Sherrard had gotten to know about her making these remarks. "When am I supposed to have said that ?" she asked Sherrard.
And then she says she can't remember the second person to whom she mentioned the resemblance.

The jury knew all this. The jury knew that Valerie had picked out an innocent man at the first parade. There is no doubt that this must have compromised VS's evidence in the minds of the dim Bedfordshire jury. If Hanratty had come up with a half believable alibi he would have got off. He did not and was convicted and hanged.

[jimarilyn]

There is no doubt that this must have compromised VS's evidence in the minds of the dim Bedfordshire jury.

Dim and incompetent. One of them couldn't even bear to hear the mention of the word 'blood'. It was even more of a sexist society back then, not one single female on the jury. A "must pay more attention" jury.

[Natalie Severn]

The jury knew all this. The jury knew that Valerie had picked out an innocent man at the first parade. There is no doubt that this must have compromised VS's evidence in the minds of the dim Bedfordshire jury. If Hanratty had come up with a half believable alibi he would have got off. He did not and was convicted and hanged.

This Bedfordshire jury you speak of were not even given the opportunity of hearing the testimony from the several Rhyl witnesses who had been to the local police in North Wales as the trial unfolded that February .
Mr Trevor Dutton went to Abergele police station on February 9 1962 to say he had been approached by a young man in Rhyl High Street,who approached him from a shop doorway , between Burton"s and Barclays Bank,and tried to sell him a gold watch on the 23rd August 1961.He was 100% certain it was 23rd August because he had been to the bank that day and remembered all perfectly clearly.Apparently because Hanratty hadnt mentioned this previously to his defence and they themselves hadnt checked it all outbecause it was all so late in the day, they didnt use these sightings or any other statement that corroborated Mrs Jones"s accout of him being in Rhyl on those specific dates .The other important Rhyl witnesses being Christopher Larman and Margaret Walker.Each of these three people remained convinced it was Hanratty they had seen on the days in question and remembered him due to the unusual artificial colour of his hair in the outdoor light ,--and each mentioned its significance .
It is also believed the reason they were not put in the witness box by Michael Sherrard was because Mrs Jones was in a state of nervous collapse after the cross questioning of Swanwick.Mrs Jones had never been to court before still less had to give evidence at a murder trial.Moreover,Swanwick had,unbeknown to her, sent for her guest books to look at the book keeping.As he went to hand them to her he dropped them and they went all over the court room floor and as they were picked up any order they had been in was gone for good as had any confidence Mrs Jones had that she would be listened to.
If anyone doubts the Ingledene story they should come to Rhyl---nearly everybody of a certain age knew about her attic room with the bath in it was famously green.Also ,if anyone has stayed in a guest house room in transit and tried to remember whether it was even "ensuite" or not after several weeks have passed ,will know that for a young man such as Hanratty to recall where the windows were in the room is probably most unlikely.Why would he have made a specific mental note of that and all these other details when he was there late on 22nd /and off out in Rhyl on 23rd August ?I mean he wasnt some old dear checking out whether there was a draught coming from the windows or anything.He was just glad to have a room to bed down in.

[Graham]

Norma,

the reason Sherrard didn't introduce more Rhyl 'witnesses' was because he felt unsure they'd add anything to his case. In other words, they could only say that they thought they'd seen Hanratty.

Now - I doubt the Ingledene story AND I've been to Rhyl within the past 5 years and had a good look at Ingledene in particular and the town in general. Nobody of a certain, or any other age, rushed up to me to tell me about the green bath and Hanratty's innocence. Why should the Ingledene bath be 'famously' green? Was it the only green bath in Wales? Some time ago, the subject of green baths was raised on this thread after someone suggested that a green bath was very rare in 1961. Someone else, who evidently had trade connections, said that green (or 'avocado') baths were coming into vogue a few years before 1961, and in fact there was some kind of grant available if you bought one (don't remember if the grant was to the plumber or to the householder...but it's somewhere on this thread).

Hanratty didn't make any specific mental notes about Ingledene, because he was never there, at least not on the night of the A6 Crime. His description was a melange of previous experience of B&B's.

The problem with Mr Dutton's statement is that it all it suggests is that - according to him - a man tried to sell him a gold watch on a specific day. He couldn't prove it was Hanratty.

I agree that Swanwick's performance with the guest-book was a bit out of order, but I don't think the judge picked him up for it. But that's how it is in court.

Back later.

Graham

[Limehouse]

This Bedfordshire jury you speak of were not even given the opportunity of hearing the testimony from the several Rhyl witnesses who had been to the local police in North Wales as the trial unfolded that February .
Mr Trevor Dutton went to Abergele police station on February 9 1962 to say he had been approached by a young man in Rhyl High Street,who approached him from a shop doorway , between Burton"s and Barclays Bank,and tried to sell him a gold watch on the 23rd August 1961.He was 100% certain it was 23rd August because he had been to the bank that day and remembered all perfectly clearly.Apparently because Hanratty hadnt mentioned this previously to his defence and they themselves hadnt checked it all outbecause it was all so late in the day, they didnt use these sightings or any other statement that corroborated Mrs Jones"s accout of him being in Rhyl on those specific dates .The other important Rhyl witnesses being Christopher Larman and Margaret Walker.Each of these three people remained convinced it was Hanratty they had seen on the days in question and remembered him due to the unusual artificial colour of his hair in the outdoor light ,--and each mentioned its significance .
It is also believed the reason they were not put in the witness box by Michael Sherrard was because Mrs Jones was in a state of nervous collapse after the cross questioning of Swanwick.Mrs Jones had never been to court before still less had to give evidence at a murder trial.Moreover,Swanwick had,unbeknown to her, sent for her guest books to look at the book keeping.As he went to hand them to her he dropped them and they went all over the court room floor and as they were picked up any order they had been in was gone for good as had any confidence Mrs Jones had that she would be listened to.
If anyone doubts the Ingledene story they should come to Rhyl---nearly everybody of a certain age knew about her attic room with the bath in it was famously green.Also ,if anyone has stayed in a guest house room in transit and tried to remember whether it was even "ensuite" or not after several weeks have passed ,will know that for a young man such as Hanratty to recall where the windows were in the room is probably most unlikely.Why would he have made a specific mental note of that and all these other details when he was there late on 22nd /and off out in Rhyl on 23rd August ?I mean he wasnt some old dear checking out whether there was a draught coming from the windows or anything.He was just glad to have a room to bed down in.

Norma

It is a very good point you make about not noticing the decor of even the position of the windows. I stay in a fair few hotels and could tell you whether they were clean and comfortable but could not recall at all the colour of the bedspread or the walls or any details like that. My husband could not even recall whether the room had a bath- a shower or both!

Also - I believe that if he had recalled every detail - people would say he could do that because he needed it for an alibi. The fact that his recall was poor perhaps indicates that he was not expecting to have to recount every detail in court as he stood trial for murder.