a6 murder

[Natalie Severn]

Hello Graham,

As you get off the train at Lime Street you can turn left for the main exit towards St George's Hall, or right to the taxi rank, where there have been for many years plenty of cabs. That he might have to travel only a short distance should not be an objection, as that fact would not have been known to Jim.
Ron

The "plenty of cabs" argument depended---and still does,on the time of day you arrive in stations in the North West .Would Hanratty have known to "turn right ---I didnt and I have used Lime Street station dozens of times---usually having alighted from a bus or arriving via Central Station from Birkenhead, and being from Birkenhead originally ,not from Liverpool .Anyway, taxi"s were not something I got into automatically---so this information about the taxi rank in Lime Street is new to me, I must confess.

[Graham]

Just to re-cap regarding the Rhyl Alibi.

Hanratty's original Liverpool Alibi centred around his staying at a flat in the Bull Ring where he claimed a man he called John lived. One of the other men was called McNally, who had known JH in prison. JH said that the men couldn't or wouldn't support his alibi because one of them had a warrant out against him. Neither the police nor Joe Gillbanks could find anyone matching that description in the Bull Ring district. It was even suggested that JH be taken to Liverpool to identify the actual flat.

Just before the start of the trial McNally was traced and subpoenaed and stated that he hadn't seen JH for four years. He also proved to the satisfaction of the police and JH's defence that he had been at home during the week of 21 August and that he didn't know anyone in the Bull Ring district. Thus JH's Liverpool Alibi felt apart and in his mind he felt obliged to concoct a new one, hence the Rhyl Alibi.

When Gillbanks came across Ingledene as somewhere that fitted JH's (vague) description of where he'd stayed, he made the elementary error of showing Mrs Grace Jones only one photo, that of JH. (The policeman who interviewed Mrs Dunwoody in Liverpool made the same mistake). All Gillbanks said at the time was that Mrs Jones thought she had seen the man before. JH was also vague, and in great part, wrong in his description of Mrs Jones. He got her hair colour wrong, he said she wore glasses but apparently didn't, and he got her build wrong. And in court Mrs Jones had to admit to Swanwick that she could not be 100% certain that the man in the photo was the man who claimed he'd stayed at her house. JH also got key facts about the interior of Ingledene wrong - even he admitted that he had stayed in so many similar places he got confused. For example, he said there was a green plant in the hall, but in fact Mrs Jones had a vase of artificial flowers.

Finally, in addition to the above and to my previous post on the subject, JH never told his mate Dixie France that he'd been to Rhyl; only to Liverpool. Normally JH was very open with Dixie, or so it seems....

Graham

[Graham]

Re: cabs. It's really only a minor point, but it does seem that a cab was JH's preferred mode of transport around cities (presumably he used the bus only when he was skint).

Graham

[jimarilyn]

Give us a couple of examples, please.

Graham

I'll do better than that and give you four examples...........

a] Page 45 Jean Justice book "Murder vs Murder" (1964)........

Michael Gregsten, Valerie Storie and the sinister intruder remained in the cornfield for almost two hours. What happened during that period was so nauseating that I can understand why Miss Storie has so far said nothing of the matter. Gregsten died that night, so that left only two people who knew the truth. Although I have never spoken to Valerie Storie, I have been told precisely what took place in the Morris Minor in the cornfield. If Valerie will admit that I am right when I state that she and Gregsten were forced to have sexual intercourse together, then she will also realise that only one person could have given me the information. The murderer.

b] Page 68 Justice......

For instance, at one stage she told the gunman that she wanted to go to the lavatory. His reply was, "If I don't go to the lavatory, nobody goes to the lavatory." And that information was given to me neither by Miss Storie nor yet by by James Hanratty. I heard it from the man who actually used those words on the night of the murder.

c] Page 321 Woffinden book "Hanratty- The Final Verdict" (1997)...............

"When I reproached them on their illicit love, Gregsten said, 'That is nothing to do with you.' I became heated and said that everything which happened was my business. that I could see civilisation slipping into vice and decadence. He laughed and this antagonized me more. As I spoke with them more and more his mentality emerged and I came to detest and despise him and knew he would be no loss to the world. "

d] Page 351 Woffinden.....

"But that didn't work. Gregsten had two chances to go, when he got out for cigarettes and milk, but he kept coming back. when I complained to them about their immorality they laughed and told me to mind my bloody business. There was an awful lot of talking in that five hours in the car. Gregsten was cocky the whole time, trying to take the mickey. I knew that the only way to break up the affair was to kill them."



PS. It surprises me that you didn't know of the above 4 examples.

[Graham]

The first two are ramblings of Justice's vivid imagination and total nonsense. Both of them exist only in Justice's ravings. Don't you honestly think that Valerie herself would have described the first, if only to ensure her attacker was vilified to the utmost in court? Neither Foot nor Woffinden refer to this, as they both knew it to be absolute rubbish. I thought you had more sense than to accept this nonsense.

Did Valerie ever confirm the third?

Valerie herself said that they stopped for milk and cigarettes; Alphon would have known this, and in his usual fashion embroidered it. Meaningless.

I'm afraid you'll have to do much better than this, James!

Graham

[jimarilyn]

Just before the start of the trial McNally was traced and subpoenaed and stated that he hadn't seen JH for four years. He also proved to the satisfaction of the police and JH's defence that he had been at home during the week of 21 August and that he didn't know anyone in the Bull Ring district. Thus JH's Liverpool Alibi felt apart and in his mind he felt obliged to concoct a new one, hence the Rhyl Alibi.

This is not so. Only the second part of the Liverpool alibi fell apart. The first part of the alibi [ eg. arriving at Lime Street Station sometime around 3 to 4 pm'ish; handing in of his luggage ; enquiring about directions at a Scotland Road sweet shop ; returning to Lime Street Station ; trying to gain access to billiard hall ; boarding Rhyl bound bus ; ] was maintained from start to finish. It was the second part of the Liverpool alibi that could not be sustained because it was proven to be untrue. The Rhyl alibi was an extension of the first part of the Liverpool alibi.

[Graham]

This is not so. Only the second part of the Liverpool alibi fell apart. The first part of the alibi [ eg. arriving at Lime Street Station sometime around 3 to 4 pm'ish; handing in of his luggage ; enquiring about directions at a Scotland Road sweet shop ; returning to Lime Street Station ; trying to gain access to billiard hall ; boarding Rhyl bound bus ; ] was maintained from start to finish. It was the second part of the Liverpool alibi that could not be sustained because it was proven to be untrue. The Rhyl alibi was an extension of the first part of the Liverpool alibi.

The crucial part of his Liverpool Alibi, that he had spent the night of the A6 Crime at the flat in the Bull Ring, fell apart, and that as far as JH and his defence team were concerned was all that mattered. No-one denies that JH did travel to Liverpool that week, but he certainly wasn't there, or in Rhyl, on the night of the crime.

Graham

[jimarilyn]

The first two are ramblings of Justice's vivid imagination and total nonsense. Both of them exist only in Justice's ravings. Don't you honestly think that Valerie herself would have described the first, if only to ensure her attacker was vilified to the utmost in court? Neither Foot nor Woffinden refer to this, as they both knew it to be absolute rubbish. I thought you had more sense than to accept this nonsense.

Did Valerie ever confirm the third?

Valerie herself said that they stopped for milk and cigarettes; Alphon would have known this, and in his usual fashion embroidered it. Meaningless.

I'm afraid you'll have to do much better than this, James!

Graham

A very, very revealing post. Your impartiality, warm feeling and admiration for Jean Justice does you proud.
And this without ever having met the man !!!

And no I don't believe Storie would have described this to the court for obvious reasons. Far too much of her testimony has proven to be unreliable and contradictory.

[jimarilyn]

Finally, in addition to the above and to my previous post on the subject, JH never told his mate Dixie France that he'd been to Rhyl; only to Liverpool. Normally JH was very open with Dixie, or so it seems....

I didn't know you were privvy to all the conversations that occurred between France and Hanratty. How do you know that Hanratty didn't mention the Rhyl trip ?

[RonIpstone]

The crucial part of his Liverpool Alibi, that he had spent the night of the A6 Crime at the flat in the Bull Ring, fell apart, and that as far as JH and his defence team were concerned was all that mattered. No-one denies that JH did travel to Liverpool that week, but he certainly wasn't there, or in Rhyl, on the night of the crime.

Graham

I do not think that we can be 100% certain he did.

[Graham]

A very, very revealing post. Your impartiality, warm feeling and admiration for Jean Justice does you proud.
And this without ever having met the man !!!

And no I don't believe Storie would have described this to the court for obvious reasons. Far too much of her testimony has proven to be unreliable and contradictory.

James, did you ever meet Justice? Of course you didn't, but that doesn't stop you describing him as a seeker after truth, does it? And accepting his every word as gospel? Apart from the A6 Case, what other 'truths' did he seek? None, so far as I'm aware. He was not, in my reading and interpretation of the information I have read regarding him, a particularly pleasant man. I couldn't give a toss that he gave up the sauce - so what? Hanratty himself didn't drink, and look what he did! You have a bad habit of seeing everything in black and white, James - those who support your beloved Hanratty are shining saints, and those who don't are coal-black demons. There is no in-between.

Why shouldn't Valerie describe being forced to have sex, if that's what happened? She was not a shy or prudish person. The 'obvious reasons' she didn't describe being forced to have sex in the car were that it never happened.

Why don't you just come out with it and call her a liar, James?

Graham

[Graham]

I do not think that we can be 100% certain he did.

No, we can't be 100% certain, Ron, but I believe the consensus is that he was in Liverpool at least on the 24th and possibly on the 25th.

Graham

[jimarilyn]

. And in court Mrs Jones had to admit to Swanwick that she could not be 100% certain that the man in the photo was the man who claimed he'd stayed at her house.

No, this is not quite true. If you have a good memory you will recall what Grace Jones said to Graham Swanwick about this matter. Here is the interaction between herself and Swanwick at the Bedford trial......

GS : "It would not be quite right, would it, to say that when you were shown the photograph you recognized it ? "

GJ : "Well, no."

GS : "It would not. Then why did you say it in answer to my learned friend ?"

GJ : "Well, he had different-coloured hair."

GS : "What ? "

GJ : "If he had had dark brown hair, I would have known him straightaway."

[Graham]

No, this is not quite true. If you have a good memory you will recall what Grace Jones said to Graham Swanwick about this matter. Here is the interaction between herself and Swanwick at the Bedford trial......

GS : "It would not be quite right, would it, to say that when you were shown the photograph you recognized it ? "

GJ : "Well, no."

GS : "It would not. Then why did you say it in answer to my learned friend ?"

GJ : "Well, he had different-coloured hair."

GS : "What ? "

GJ : "If he had had dark brown hair, I would have known him straightaway."

All of which means that she couldn't be certain, the point that Swanwick successfully made. Terry Evans asked her during the trial (very naughty) if she recognised the man in the dock as Hanratty, and she said she was almost certain. I.e., not 100% certain. She actually said to Swanwick, "No, I got muddled - the hair. He had not got that coloured hair when he was in our house". She was muddled and not 100% sure that the man in the dock was the man who came to her house. So she was not certain that the two men were one and the same, and as far as the law was concerned, her evidence was suspect.

Graham

[RonIpstone]

I am certain that Hanratty did not stay in Ingledene on the night of the murder for the simple reason that the only room available was the room with the green bath and a skylight for a window. Hanratty's room, on the other hand, had a sink and rear windows with curtains. Whoever, if anyone, Mrs Jones let the attic to on the night of 22nd August it was not Jim Hanratty.