a6 murder

[NickB]

Why did it have to be useful? I text before I leave places-and on trains too!

Well it appears its only use was to provide some kind of evidence that he was in Liverpool should he need to establish an alibi, with the false address an attempt to make the intent less blatent.

Presumably the information that was useful to France (when and where he was arriving) was given separately in a phone call.

[Natalie Severn]

I suppose if Hanratty had bought a return on the Crossville bus, then he might be unwilling to waste it. I cannot say what, if any, was the price difference between Rhyl/ Euston and Liverpool/Euston. I would be surprised if it warranted a 2 hour plus bus journey.

It wasn"t 2 hours plus Ron,it took an hour and a half at most---exactly the same as now only now it doesnt go from Lime Street but further away from the centre.
The Rhyl /Euston rail route was not as regular,used to take a heck of a lot longer, had no night train like Lime Street did ------which everybody preferred to take because it was much cheaper.

The other point which I wonder about, is why a telegram and why not give Dixie a call on the blower?

Hanratty had learning difficulties. I think it was Gladys Deacon who said Hanratty used to ask her to dial numbers for him---he had problems regarding both letters and numbers which sounds like he had a form of dyslexia.He could manage to , but preferred not to have to she said.

[Natalie Severn]

Well it appears its only use was to provide some kind of evidence that he was in Liverpool should he need to establish an alibi, with the false address an attempt to make the intent less blatent.

Presumably the information that was useful to France (when and where he was arriving) was given separately in a phone call.

I can see your reasoning here certainly,but Hanratty was not worried or concerned about anything either in London in late August /early September or when he was in Liverpool and Rhyl on 22nd /23rd August ---other than trying to sell the bits and pieces of jewellry he had taken with him.His stay in Rhyl the first night and following day ,consisted of looking for Terry Evans who,when Hanratty had previously been in Rhyl,had parked his old black taxi outside the fairground, and was very easy to find.However when Hanratty looked for him on August 22nd,he had left the fairground job and taken his taxi with him, so Hanratty was unable to find him.
In fact Terry Evans,who had only known Hanratty briefly, proved a loyal friend to Hanratty ,and he,like everyone who testified to having seen him in Rhyl, strongly believed he had been there when he said he had .It was Evans who had gone knocking on doors with Hanratty"s legal officer ,Gillbanks, to try to find the B&B he had stayed in on the night he couldnt find him.He explained too that Hanratty was correct when he had said he could have helped him get rid of the jewelry, but only as a middle man.He had not ,at the time of the trial,wanted it to look like he himself 'received" stolen goods to sell.
When they found ithe B&B , it matched in every detail the Ingledene you see today---Cinema at the end of the road,railway at the rear,bridge next to Cinema at end of Kinmel Street. And the green bath in upstairs bedroom .

[Natalie Severn]

Zodiac,
To answer you point from the Burka thread, as you can see I do not think Hanratty committed the A6 murder.I believe it likely that Alphon outwitted everybody involved and,as the man first suspected of the crime,was probably the gunman .
Hanratty had no history of violence and no history of rape---whatever.Nor was he the personality type to have committed such a bizarre crime---but Alphon definitely appears to have had mental health problems of a schizophrenic kind [which doesnt make him a killer but a person "more likely" to have committed such an odd crime]. A large number of people said they saw Hanratty in Rhyl when he said he was there,the most important being Mrs Jones the landlady and her daughter Brenda Harris.
There was no question in the minds of these people or of Christopher Larman ,Trevor Dutton or Margaret Walker that the young man they had seen,who all these last three had noticed had dyed hair, was James Hanratty

[Zodiac]

Hi Nat,

Thank you for your reply to my post. Sorry about my posting of it on the "Burka" thread but in my own defence, I think that the threat had already strayed way off topic!!! Yes, of course, I see that you do not believe that Hanratty committed the A6 rape/murder. I also firmly believe that this is your honest and deeply felt opinion, based on many years of reading up on and researching into the Hanratty case. I myself cannot, and would not, claim any such depth of knowledge about the A6 murder. Based on what I do know, I have to say that I think Hanratty was guilty, but I am certainly prepared to admit to being wrong, god knows it wouldn't be the first time, if someone can produce some new evidence to prove it so. So far, for me at least, no one has been able to do so.

I'll say this though Nat, if I should ever find myself, god forbid, on a murder charge, I would definetly want you fighting my corner for me!!!

Best Wishes,

Zodiac.

[RonIpstone]

It wasn"t 2 hours plus Ron,it took an hour and a half at most---exactly the same as now only now it doesnt go from Lime Street but further away from the centre.

Hello Norma or Natalie

I based my times on the time of the outbound journey, namely 2 hours 19 minutes.

Here is the public transport route planner ROUTE PLANNER

see how quickly you can get from Rhyl to Liverpool by local bus.

The Rhyl /Euston rail route was not as regular,used to take a heck of a lot longer, had no night train like Lime Street did ------which everybody preferred to take because it was much cheaper.

Point taken, but surely he would have got more quickly and more conveniently back to London by going from Rhyl by rail. Did Hanratty know about any difference in fare? How did he know that the journey from Rhyl would have been prohibitively expensive?

Hanratty had learning difficulties. I think it was Gladys Deacon who said Hanratty used to ask her to dial numbers for him---he had problems regarding both letters and numbers which sounds like he had a form of dyslexia.He could manage to , but preferred not to have to she said.

Point taken again but he seems to have had no trouble phoning Charlotte France from London Airport some weeks later on his trip to Dublin, and he had to telephone in his telegram.

Ron

[jimarilyn]

So I still maintain that it is far more likely that Hanratty either travelled to Liverpool on 24 August for the purpose of trying to buy an alibi, or got someone else to send a telegram on that date.

How can that possibly be ? The murder was committed about 42 hours before the sending of the telegram. An alibi is only valid and sustainable if it coincides with the actual time of a crime.

[jimarilyn]

Well it appears its only use was to provide some kind of evidence that he was in Liverpool should he need to establish an alibi, with the false address an attempt to make the intent less blatent.

The sending of the telegram could not have acted as an alibi for the simple reason that the murder was committed 42 hours earlier.

[jimarilyn]

There are other questions which arise out of Hanratty’s alleged return to Liverpool. Why did he go back there in the first place? Why embark on an enervating 2 hour 20 minute journey by local bus to Liverpool to hang around there for ten hours or so, only to get a midnight train back to the Smoke? There were direct trains from Rhyl to London, why not get one of those?

Surely the obvious reason for his return by bus to Liverpool was to have another stab at selling the gold watch he'd tried [unsuccessfully] to sell to Trevor Dutton the previous afternoon. There was also the added attraction of New Brighton funfair. Hanratty loved fairgrounds and he was drawn to them like a magnet.

[RonIpstone]

How can that possibly be ? The murder was committed about 42 hours before the sending of the telegram. An alibi is only valid and sustainable if it coincides with the actual time of a crime.

He was trying to buy his alibi for the time of the murder.

Do not confuse the defence of alibi with the evidence adduced to support it.

A man would have an alibi merely by saying that at the time of the commission of the offence he was elsewhere. Hanratty's alibi was that at the time of commission of the offence he was in Rhyl, part of his evidence in support of his alibi was that on his way back from Rhyl via Liverpool he sent Dixie a telegram. Obviously Hanratty saying that he was in Liverpool on the evening after the murder would not amount to an alibi, but his saying that he was there on his way back from Rhyl, and whilst there sent a telegram, would be evidence, obviously not conclusive, in support of his alibi.

Hope this helps.

[RonIpstone]

Surely the obvious reason for his return by bus to Liverpool was to have another stab at selling the gold watch he'd tried [unsuccessfully] to sell to Trevor Dutton the previous afternoon. There was also the added attraction of New Brighton funfair. Hanratty loved fairgrounds and he was drawn to them like a magnet.

Ah, the good old gold watch, whatever happened to it? Had Jim perceived that everyone in London already had such a watch? And that he would be unlikely to flog it there?

The magnetic pull of New Brighton and its world famous funfair did not seem to exert itself on Hanratty until relatively late in the day. Indeed had Jim managed to get to see the Winstone bout, it is unlikely he would have been able to get to New Brighton and back in time for his train ride south.

[Limehouse]

Hello Natalie or Norma and NickB,

According to Bob Woffinden, Hanratty bought a ticket from Liverpool to Euston on the night of 24 August, implying that he had not bought a return from Euston when he set off on 22 August.

I suppose if Hanratty had bought a return on the Crossville bus, then he might be unwilling to waste it. I cannot say what, if any, was the price difference between Rhyl/ Euston and Liverpool/Euston. I would be surprised if it warranted a 2 hour plus bus journey.

I think that there was a disagreement between the Frances who said Hanratty returned on the Saturday and the man himself who said his odyssey ended on Friday morning.

The other point which I wonder about, is why a telegram and why not give Dixie a call on the blower? The obvious advantage of a telegram is that there would be an independent record of it being sent, which would not be true of the making of a phone call. Did Hanratty have an idea to how this might play out in court?

Ron

Did the Frances have a telephone? I doubt it - not many ordinary people did in those days and sending a telegram was the normal way of contacting people.

[RonIpstone]

Did the Frances have a telephone? I doubt it - not many ordinary people did in those days and sending a telegram was the normal way of contacting people.

Hi Julie,

I think you will find that Hanratty is reported as phoning Charlotte from London Airport before his flight to Dublin.

Ron

[Graham]

Hanratty's attempts to forge an alibi were poor. The telegram was hardly going to do the trick, and later, in early October, he travelled again to Liverpool this time to try and 'buy' an alibi with some crooked friends (McNally? Aspinall? A N Other) and was told to get stuffed in spite of offering a substantial amount of money. Funny how he could find his so-called mates at that time, but when he claimed to be in Liverpool on 22 August he hadn't much of an idea how to locate them....

The 'watch at the billiard-hall steps' is also spurious. Hanratty was well aware of the billiard-hall on Lime Street from at least one previous visit to Liverpool. The manager, Mr Kempt, said he would stand outside for some fresh air, any time between 6.00pm and 7.30pm. He said he remembers someone coming up to him trying to sell a watch, but had no recollection of precisely when that was, or the time of day. If, as Hanratty claimed, he went by bus to Liverpool, the only bus left at 6.00pm - meaning presumably he'd have to be at the bus-station well prior to that time to buy a ticket, etc., so it seems highly unlikely that he'd have been able to approach Mr Kempt - the timings don't add up. As Mr Kempt says he recalls such an incident, then it had to be on Hanratty's previous visit.

Another slight mystery - Hanratty was used to travelling around by cab, so why did he claim he travelled by bus when he claimed to have arrived in Liverpool to pursue his spurious search for Carleton/Tarleton/Talbot Road or whatever?

Regarding his claim to be in Rhyl, there really is no solid, tangible, concrete evidence to support this. No signature in a boarding-house register; no Terry Evans to state categorically that Hanratty spent the crucial time with him;
no-one with a gold watch they'd bought from him and which might still have his fingerprints; no bus-ticket stub; no receipt from a cafe or a restaurant;
no recollection by [I]anyone who stayed at Ingledene that week that they'd seen Hanratty. All there is are half-remembered recollections by several people who [I]think[I] they might have seen someone who could have been Hanratty - and of these, the newspaper seller, admitted he lied about this. If any of these vague claims to have seen him have any basis in truth, it is quite obviously based upon Hanratty's actual visit to Rhyl in July. I believe that Sherrard himself was unable to accept Hanratty's Rhyl alibi, but for obvious reasons was obliged to act upon it; he certainly didn't seem convinced. Sherrard also made the point that at least one potential witness (I'm thinking of the man Hanratty claimed to have met at Liverpool left-luggage office) wanted simply to 'get in on the act'; and I would suggest that he very likely thought the same about the Rhyl 'witnesses'. I repeat, had Hanratty stuck to his Liverpool Alibi he might have convinced the jury.

Graham

Julie - the Frances did have a telephone, as did Hanratty's parents. It's mentioned somewhere in "the books" but can't remember where.

[Graham]

Don't think this has been posted before.

Graham

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=6532293